DISQUS

allen · 1 year ago

Hi: Wow- simply thanks. Can you give the recipe for a sour dough using this base method. Thanks

Malcolm Kronby · 1 year ago

Hi Eric:

Thanks for posting these recipes and videos.

I'm making my best and most consistent bread with a slightly different method, which also uses a parchment paper sling as recommended in the CI article. You're right: there is no need to use a skillet for the paper.

I make enough dough for three loaves. The dough is kept refigerated, and baked a loaf at a time or as needed. It will keep for at least a week, and the flavour improves.

Make a poolish with 100 grams of rye flour (my preference, but any flour will do), 75 grams of water and 1/4 tsp of instant yeast. This will be ready after about four hours at room temperature, and can be refigerated until needed.

Then:

The poolish, plus

900 grams of flour: for example 600 g of white, 200 g of multigrain and 100 g of rye, or whatever you like.

675 grams of water, plus
1 TBS malt or balsamic vinegar, and
1 TBS barley malt extract (You may remember these extra ingredients from an earlier recipe I submitted.)

1 tsp of instant yeast

1 TBS of sea salt

Mix the ingredients thoroughly and vigorously; this is a lot like brief kneading. Cut off 500-550 grams of the dough, let it rise, shape it, proof it on the parchment paper, and bake it covered at 500 for 30 minutes, then uncovered at 450 for 10 minutes.

After you make three loaves, you should have about 150 grams of dough left over. This is your poolish for the next batch. It gets better and better.

Refrigerated dough can be shaped while cold, and left to rise at room temperature. It will take at least two hours, but you can leave it for six hours or maybe more.

The crust will be thin and crackling. The crumb will have large open holes (my preference).

Also, I made a delicious yeast-risen cornbread for the first time today, something like a Portuguese "broa" but (honestly) better.

For one loaf:

240 g white flour
100 g cornmeal
2 tsp vital wheat gluten
260 g water
1/2 tsp instant yeast
1 tsp salt

Mixed, left to rise at room temperature, shaped (as a boule), proofed, baked on parchment paper all as above.

Regards.

Richard L Walker · 1 year ago

Nice looking recipe. A couple of questions.
-/ Seems like additional malt flavor could be added by using a full cup of beer (all the liquid) rather than 1/4 cup. I'll have no problem drinking the additional beer but it seems like additional flavor could be added just by using all beer and no water.
-/ I do like the suggestion about a sourdough version if you'd like to put that recipe together.
In the meantime, I'll give this recipe a try. I just started using one of my large plastic bowls as a proofing bowl and an iron Dutch oven for baking. I really like the results.

Beth in UT · 1 year ago

Eric, I wondered if you could do this recipe WITHOUT the beer. Maybe substitute it with water or milk. I'd like to vote for the sourdough version!! Thanks

Karil Rauss · 1 year ago

CI “Almost No Knead” bread: I subscribed to Cooks Illustrated for years and highly recommend it. It is great to see a CI recipe converted to video for breadtopia.com. My question is whether it is possible to place pan loafs under a clôche. (I have not found a resource for La Clôche in France, so I have converted a large round terra cotta pot Fortunately, the hole in the bottom is not pierced all the way through. I have used this with great success in tandem with my pizza stone. Not having a handle makes it a bit cumbersome, but I manage.) This make-shift clôche is sufficiently large that I could place a loaf pan on a pizza stone under it, too. Would there be any advantage to using the clôche with loaf breads? I always use the pizza stone to insure a more even oven temperature. Thank you!

Cathy Parrigan · 1 year ago

I am so anxious to try the almost no knead bread I just watched! Did you use hot or room temp water? I'll let you know how it turns out - Thanks

Eric's Edit: Room temperature water is fine. Good luck (but hopefully you won't need it).

Bruce · 1 year ago

Great job, Eric!

Clear, concise, helpful, useful and fun. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for your work.

Best, Bruce

Bruce · 1 year ago

Hi Malcolm:

Thank you for your most interesting post. I had not seen your previous posts.

I find your concept of using the remainder of the dough as the poolish (or "old dough") for the next batch quite ingenious.... I don't like waste!

I have a couple questions.

1. Early in your post you indicate that the dough is kept refrigerated. Am I correct in understanding that you generally refrigerate the dough immediately after thoroughly mixing it? I assume that this aging greatly enhances the dough's flavor.

2. It sounds as though one could ferment and proof and bake a loaf immediately after mixing, reserving the rest of the dough in the refrigerator. Have you ever tried this?

3. Do you ever precut the loaf portions immediately after mixing and then individually retard the portions in separate containers? Or do you generally just retard the entire dough and then cut out the portion that you want?

4. Does the dough ferment in the refrigerator over the span of the days? Or should you ferment the dough after it comes out of the refrigerator before shaping and proofing? At the end of your post you write that the refrigerated dough can be shaped while cold and left to proof. This gives me the impression that most of the fermenting (rising) actually occurs in the fridge. Or you may be meaning that you generally cut a portion of retarded dough, let the portion come to room temperature and then shape and proof. Do you understand what I am trying to picture?

5. Where do you get your barley malt extract?

Thanks for your input.

Best, Bruce

rlabohn · 1 year ago

eric...what do you think about adding 1/4 cup of starter to the mix in addition to the basic recipe from cooks illustrated??

Doris · 1 year ago

Thanks Eric!

looks great!

Best regards from Vienna!
Doris

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Allen, Beth & Ronnie -

One of the first things I tried was adding 1/4 cup of sourdough starter to the recipe. I found I liked the Cook's Illustrated recipe better as is. Somebody else in here (was it you, Bruce?) did the same thing and came to the same conclusion. Of course you could try it and see what you think.

One thing I haven't done is just leave out the beer and vinegar, substitute an approximately equal amount of water and use starter in place of the yeast. It would be a very different recipe, but maybe you'd end up with some of the other desirable characteristics of this bread.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Malcolm,

Thanks for the great contribution. Very interesting and helpful information.

Ruth Ann · 1 year ago

Could you give a recipe to fill a pullman pan? Thanks!

breadtopia · 1 year ago

I'm only vaguely familiar with a pullman pan. How does its dimensions differ from the oblong la cloche?

Bruce · 1 year ago

Experimentation

Dear Eric and all:

I did find sourdough plus beer and vinegar to be too much flavor for me.

But I say: EXPERIMENT!!!

Recipes are just someone's record of what they did before.

I know some of us are on significantly limited budgets. I respect that. But for most, a bag of flour is not as expensive as most other hobbies. Making a loaf at a time allows you to experiment, pushing the limits of what you know.

I've always religiously retarded my sour dough in the fridge for 24 hours and then given the dough an 18 hour fermentation at room temperature. This method makes wonderful sourdough bread, thanks to Rhine's experiment.

But yesterday I reduced the ferment to 12 hours and gave the dough a longer proof (about 2 3/4 hours) before baking.

What I discovered for my bread was that the loaf was still wonderful and much less sour. Friends who don't like sourdough would love this naturally fermented bread.

So go ahead a try sour plus beer plus vinegar, or skip the vinegar, or use potato water from boiled potatoes. Add some honey, or maple syrup, soak some seeds and add to the mix.

I took a fully fermented sour dough and cut it into 10 pieces, formed balls, let them rest for 30 minutes, stuck my thumb through each hole and expanded the hole to make 10 bagels. Let them rest for 20 minutes or so, stretched them again so the hole wouldn't completely close up, boiled them in water with a little sugar (1/4 cup of sugar for a big pot of water; you could try honey or maple syrup, much less, the same or more) then baked until brown at 400º. I boil them for about a minute a side. You could experiment with 10 seconds to 2 minutes! Best bagels I've ever made. I've tried this with the addition of baking soda to the boiling water and didn't like the effect. Some swear by the baking soda.

I say experiment. Even the failures are generally edible.

Some experiments are failures. Hot water kills yeast and sourdough culture. But you won't make that mistake again....

One time I put boiled bagels directly on parchment paper and found out that the paper became glued to the bagels. So now I rest the boiled bagels on a metal rack for a minute or two just to let them dry a bit. Dry them too much and you can't get poppy or sesame seeds to stick. You experiment and find what works for you.

I really appreciate people like Malcolm and Rhine who challenge rules that my little brain keeps thinking are unbreakable....

Best, Bruce

Bruce · 1 year ago

Dear Ruth Ann and Eric:

I am guessing that Ruth Ann means a pan with a flat cover which slides onto the base, so that you get absolutely square bread.

Whenever I have an odd shaped pan, I fill it with water, measure the amount of water and then compare it to the water volume of a pan with which I am familiar, like a 9 x 5 bread pan. I do my math so that if the pullman pan has 25% more volume than a 9 x 5 pan, I know to try to increase my dough by about 25% over high much dough I would use for the 9 x 5 pan. Then try it and decide if you should go higher or lower with your dough volume.

Hope this helps.

Best, Bruce

Bruce · 1 year ago

The other good thing about sharing ideas at a site like this is that I'll find someone who knows more than I do. Someone will tell me how to improve my bagel recipe. Or tell me how to make a no-knead sweet dough, something I haven't tried yet.

Back to the pullman pan issue. Such challenges are why I prefer to weigh my ingredients (buy a scale from Eric!). If everything is in weight measure, it is easy to add 25% to each substance in the recipe. I even find it helpful with portions. For me, a raw dough portion of between 100g and 130g makes the right sized bagel for my family. If I have 1000g gram of ripe dough, I know that I should form between eight and ten bagels.

Right now I'm making bagels from Eric's beer bread dough, to which I added a tablespoon of maple syrup, figuring that the maple syrup would help them brown up nicely in the oven and give them so more chew. They are looking good so far.

Best, Bruce

Malcolm Kronby · 1 year ago

Hi Eric:

These are the answers to Bruce's questions posted above:

1 & 2. It depends on my needs and schedule. Sometimes I use enough dough for one loaf right away and refrigerate the rest; sometimes I refrigerate the whole batch. Yes, aging enhances the flavour.

3. I've never reserved individual portions, but no reason why not. I mix the dough in a five-litre plastic pail (with cover), ex Hellman's mayonnaise, and take what I need when I need it.

4. Does the dough ferment in the refrigerator over the span of the days? YES.

Or should you ferment the dough after it comes out of the refrigerator before shaping and proofing? At the end of your post you write that the refrigerated dough can be shaped while cold and left to proof. This gives me the impression that most of the fermenting (rising)
actually occurs in the fridge. SOME OF THE FERMENTING OCCURS IN THE REFRIGERATOR. Or you may be meaning that you generally cut a portion of retarded dough, let the portion come to room temperature and then shape and proof. Do you understand what I am trying to picture? YES.
ALL OF THAT HAPPENS AS THE DOUGH WARMS UP. YOU CAN SHAPE IT COLD OR WARM. THE DOUGH WILL RISE SATISFACTORILY. IT'S JUST A MATTER OF CONVENIENCE TO SHAPE IT WHILE COLD, AND LEAVE IT ON THE PARCHMENT PAPER, COVERED WITH PLASTIC WRAP, UNTIL READY TO BAKE. BY THE WAY, ERIC USES OIL SPRAY ON THE PARCHMENT PAPER; I DON'T.

5. Any health food store should have jars of barley malt extract. It's a thick, dark syrup. If you can't get it, use molasses.

Malcolm.

Richard L Walker · 1 year ago

Barley malt extract can also be found in stores that sell beer making supplies. Which brings up the subject of using malt and specialty grains (ground fine or otherwise) in bread making. The combinations would be unlimited and, I'll bet, mostly wonderful to taste.

Bruce · 1 year ago

Malcolm:

Thanks so much for your very quick reply to my questions. I look forward to trying your method as soon as I am able. I'll probably mix a batch today and start baking on Monday or Tuesday.

What is the longest period of time that you have been able to retard the dough? Have you gone past the point of no return? If so, how many days was that for you?

Do you also make sour dough bread or do you find the method you have described a satisfactory equivalent? The constant turnover of the left over dough into a new batch is, in reality, the oldest form of sourdough culture. You just add some yeast to the final dough.

I wonder if I started a batch with 150 grams of active sourdough culture (rye flour based), could I perhaps do the whole process as sour dough? I think that is a task for another day, or year. My rule is: always start a new recipe as it is written....

Thanks also for the yeast-based corn bread. I've never seen anything at all like this. I'll need to buy some vital wheat gluten and then I'll give it a shot. I can understand the need for the gluten with the percentage of corn meal in the dough.

Thanks, too, Eric, for letting this information highway flow.

Best, Bruce

Bruce · 1 year ago

Hi, Eric:

As you know, I've also been making the beer bread for a couple weeks now.

I have been using Bragg Organic Apple Cider Vinegar in the dough with what I consider to be great success. I'm not sure if white vinegar is absolutely necessary. Perhaps others can experiment and report on their results.

I've also used flat beer with no detriment so far. I don't think the fizz in the beer is vital to the bread.

Best, Bruce

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hmmm, apple cider vinegar sounds really good. Good to know about the flat beer thing too.

Jessica · 1 year ago

Has anyone tried making this bread with a dark beer, such as Guiness Stout?

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Jessica,

I'd like to nominate you to give it a try and report back. Would anyone like to second this?

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March 3rd Edit: Jessica (and her bread) rose to the challenge. See her March 3rd post with pics below.

Ken Trease · 1 year ago

Jessica the orignal CI article stated that they didn't like the breads made with heavy ales. They preferred the taste of lighter lagers. I have made several batches with Sam Adams lager which I like and I just started a batch with Pryamid Snow Cap, a darker winter beer. Will let you know how I like it tomorrow.

allen · 1 year ago

Hi: A general question : what are the possible reasons/solutions when no or little rising of dough when baking the loaf? Thanks for help Allen

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Allen,

It sounds like you're referring to rise you get after the bread goes in the oven, or the "oven spring" as it's sometimes called. Some recipes just don't produce much oven spring. In my experience, the very wet doughs (like the NYT no knead recipe) are like that. Another possibility is the dough was over proofed before going in the oven, so there's no umph? left in the dough to give it that last kick. In which case, you could try putting it in the oven sooner.

Others will likely have different and/or better explanations, but those are a couple things that occur to me.

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Karil Rauss · 1 year ago

Hello Barbara
It seems that you submitted a comment on the post "Cook's Illustrated Almost No Knead", but I don't find it. I quote it below:

Comment:
I am spending my weekends baking and learning. An attempt at Cajun Three Pepper bread yeilded a very wet batter. I added an extra cup of flour and am OK with the result, but need to check on the recipe's call for "uncooked polenta". My local grocery offers refrigerated tubes of polenta in their health food section. Did I use the right stuff? Would an Iowa girl just look for cornmeal?

I am a beginner at bread, but I have cooked quite a lot of polenta over the years. What you are referring to in the tube is cooked polenta. Considering that one uses about 1 part polenta meal to 5 or more parts water (by volume), it is no wonder you needed to add additional flour to your recipe. In any case, polenta is a bit like cornmeal, but is is a bit coarser. The polenta that is made in some of the mountainous regions of Switzerland (Bramata meal polenta) is quite coarse—each grain being about 2-3 millimeters thick—about like a very coarse kosher salt. It takes a good hour or more of stovetop cooking in a heavy pot and very frequent stirring with a wooden spoon. The ordinary polenta that one uses in Italy (at least in the Tuscany, where I have visited) is about half as coarse. It requires about 40 minutes of cooking time. I believe that it is this sort that is being referred to for the recipe. (It is somewhat coarser than the cornmeal that one ordinarily uses for batter-bread (quick bread) cornbread.) Like oats and rice, there is instant polenta that only requires a few minutes of cooking time. I would avoid this sort. If you use the finer cornmeal, I imagine that the texture would be somewhat heavier. Also, because a cup of the finer grind would weigh more than a cup of the coarser grind, you would need to adjust your recipe accordingly. Good Luck!

Bob Packer · 1 year ago

Eric,
I just came on the site to check out the new almost no knead addition.
Of all the times I have been on the site, I just noticed a typo. In the first paragraph on the home page, you use the word "pallet" and I believe you mean "palate". Sorry to be nitpicky, but you know how I am!
Grin!
Bob

Sylvia · 1 year ago

This was simply dee-lissh! I even got use the coors beer that had been in my cupboard for over a year..I had bought it to kill yard snails! I used all KA all-purpose flour,raw sugar dissolved in the water and instead of placing into my covered pot...I used my big round stainless steel bowl and made for my oven stones. Slid the round loaf on with my super-peel..(so much fun to use)parchment and all...covered with my pre-heated lid and what I got was a hugh round,crispy crust,loaf. It had a wonderful light and more holes than expected texture. Really tasted great with Italian salame,lettuce,onion,black olives,mozzarella,little miracle whip and Italian dressing. Hubby and I scarfed it down. Thank you for your e-mail telling me about this tasty easy bread.

Betty Wright · 1 year ago

Hi Eric, I've been fooling around with some recipes given to me by bread baking friends. No more! I made a resolution to do just your No-Knead method. Made a great loaf. Happiness! Then I got your video of the Almost. I can't wait. Tomorrow. I'll report.

I can't tell you how much I enjoy your videos and my thanks to you are endless. Betty

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Good catch, Bob. Misspelling fixed. Thanks.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Sylvia - that's great. I would ask you to email me a photo (if possible) to post, but I have a feeling it may be a tad late for that anyway!

breadtopia · 1 year ago

You're welcome, Betty. Look forward to getting your report.

Malcolm Kronby · 1 year ago

Replies to Bruce's Questions (see above)

The longest I've kept the dough is ten or eleven days refrigerated. I've never reached a point of no return.

Yes, the recycled poolish is the equivalent of a sourdough bread method. I've worked with sourdough starters, but I prefer the flavour of the poolish-based bread. Also, since the poolish is just travelling on from one batch of dough to another, it never becomes excessively sour, never spoils, and needs no maintenance.

About the yeast-risen cornbread: My wife had asked for a cornbread to go with her delicious chili. I had never seen anything quite like it, but it's really just a variation of my basic recipe, using a proportion of cornmeal instead of, say, multigrain flour. And you're right: I figured that to get a good rise it would need a shot of extra protein in the form of vital wheat gluten to compensate for the use of cornmeal. The result surpassed my expectations.

Malcolm

Jessica · 1 year ago

Okay, I have accepted your challenge and baked both types of almost no knead using Guiness Extra Stout (darker than the regular). I also added 1/2 cup of cooked wheat berries to each loaf. Both are fantastic! They are both flavorful, moist inside with plenty of holes, and the crust is chewy/crisp.

Lori · 1 year ago

Hi Eric, Made the C.I. version yesterday and loved how much it rose. I did not have beer so I substituted lemon energy drink and today I have dough almost ready to bake that I made with tropical energy drink.I am also using Agave Nectar instead of sugar or honey. First one turned out so well that I had to make another loaf right away. Oh, and I took pics so will forward those to you if they turned out. The parchment paper made the whole process so easy. I did have trouble cutting into the dough prior to baking--don't have a razor so tried to use a knife. Also, the crust was a little darker than I like. But, hey, it's almost gone so it must be ok!! Thanks Eric!!

Bruce · 1 year ago

Malcolm, you've been a huge help.

Have you ever retarded the cornmeal bread?

Best, Bruce

Bruce · 1 year ago

Hi, Malcolm:

This Monday evening, I mixed my first batch of dough according to your February 29 post. I have not previously experienced a recipe like this one. My four-hour rye poolish barely grew but I didn't expect much with 100% rye flour.

This is clearly a 75% hydration dough, including the poolish, isn't it? I'm going to give the dough a couple days of rest in the refrigerator. I think refrigeration of a slack dough really enhances a full hydration of the flour. And hydration is really what develops gluten.

The specific hydration across the board will allow me to easily adjust the recipe to create the sized loafs that I am used to making. This is good.

About the shaping and proofing:

1. Should I try to handle the dough as little as possible? Or is good pre-shaping and shaping important? You'll probably say yes to both. Why do I ask? Hah!

2. I tend to get better bread when I don't over proof dough. How puffy should it get? Your posts make it sound as the proofing is very forgiving.

3. I assume I should bake the bread beyond 200 degrees? I usually try to approach 210 degrees with most of my artisan bread. What is your experience with this kind of bread?

Once I go through the process a couples times, I am sure that I'll stop pestering you with so many questions.

Best, Bruce

Malcolm Kronby · 1 year ago

Further reply to Bruce (above)

You're not pestering me. Glad to help.

Four hours is the minimum for the rye-flour poolish. You can leave it around overnight.

You're right about 75% hydration. My basic proportions are 4:3, flour to water (ignoring yeast and salt).

1. I like an open crumb with big holes, so, yes, I handle the dough gently, and yes, good shaping is important.
That's where a parchment sling helps a lot. BTW, as with any slack dough, slashing is tricky.

2. The proofing is indeed very forgiving. Puffy is good. I've never had a problem with over-proofing.

3. I have never tested for internal temperature. After 30 minutes at 500 covered, and 10 minutes more uncovered at 450, the bread will be fine. That's my oven. Yours may produce a different result. Treat the covered baking time as invariable, and give it more or less time uncovered depending how dark and crunchy it looks and feels. if the bread seems underbaked after cooling - you know the crust will soften as the bread cools - preheat the oven to 375 and give it another 5 or 10 minutes.

Note on the yeasted cornmeal bread: Use finely-ground cornmeal in the dough, but for great flavour and a pretty loaf, sprinkle it with coarsley-ground cornmeal when shaping and proofing. For the next yeasted cornmeal bread, I'll chop up some sun-dried tomatoes (not oil-packed) and mix them into the dough.

Any questions ?

Malcolm

Betty Wright · 1 year ago

Hi Eric, My first loaf of A-N-K bread was a complete success. I left it for an initial 12 hours so it would fit my schedule. Its versatility is one of its greatest features. I took a picture and wanted to send it but I don't know how to get it on this comment page. I'm sure I'll soon know how! Happy baking, Betty

Ed P - Bellevue, WA · 1 year ago

Hi Eric,
A great addition to Breadtopia’s recipe and video library. I’ve made six loaves so far experimenting along the way. Here are my observations and variations:
1. I found the dough too dry, upped the water slightly to 8 oz.
2. Wheat Bread – replaced honey or sugar with one tbs. of molasses.
3. Rye Bread – Use the wheat bread recipe except: Use rye flour instead of wheat, 1 tbs. of malt syrup instead of honey or sugar, 1 tbs. Fennel seeds (smashed in mortar and pestle) & 1 tbs. Caraway seeds mixed in with the dry ingredients. The dough will look uninspiring and rise even less than the wheat but will puff up nicely when baked. We keep our house 67 degrees during the day and 60 at night so I use our furnace room for fermentation and rising. The room is a large closet like space that stays about 75 degrees all the time. So, at cooler temperatures longer times may be wise.
Thanks for all that you do for us
Ed

Karil Rauss · 1 year ago

Hello Bruce and Malcolm, and hello Eric!

I have been following your e-dialogue about retarding, and as a beginner, I am still a bit confused about the steps. At the risk of appearing as dense as some of my first loaves of bread, (though none of my breadtopia loafs have failed!), I have included three hypothetical "schedules" below to help clarify what I am trying to clarify and understand.

When you refer to forming the loaf from the cold dough, it suggests that retardation and fermentation are treated as one step (as indicated in SCHEDULE A), so that you remove the dough that had slowly but thoroughly fermented during the retardation phase in the refridgerator—it doubled or more in volume while in the refridgerator. Then you proceed directly with shaping and proofing.

When I retard in the fridge, (as in SCHEDULE A), the dough does indeed rise to double, often even before the full 24 hours have passed. I treat this as the fermentation phase (retarded fermentation). I then shape the loaf (cold) and allow it to rise (proof) at room temperature before baking it. Of course, this proofing phase will take longer, because the dough needs to come to room temperature. Is this how you proceed, too?

Or do you punch down the retarded dough and continue with a room temperature fermentation phase (8-18 hours) followed by shaping and proofing phase (ca. 2 hours), (As in SCHEDULE B)?

I have also read of schedules (such as the procedure described in SCHEDULE C) in which the dough is fermented at room temperature and then shaped. The shaped loaves are then retarded overnight in the refrigerator so that the proofing phase takes place during retardation in the refrigerator ("retarded proofing"). When the loaves have risen sufficiently, they are removed from the fridge, allowed to return to room temperature (ca. 1 hour), and then they are baked.

***********************************************************************************************
SCHEDULE A.)

1) MIX THE DOUGH AND KNEAD BRIEFLY (15X) (For the CI ANK Bread).
2.) RETARD THE DOUGH 24 HOURS IN THE REFRIDGERATOR ("Retarded Fermentation")
3.) SHAPE THE LOAF
4.) PROOF THE LOAF AT ROOM TEMP FOR 2 HOURS (or perhaps longer, because it needs to return to room temperature)
5.) FLOUR, SLASH, BAKE
6.) COOL AT LEAST 2 HOURS BEFORE INDULGING

*************************************************************************
SCHEDULE B.)

1) MIX THE DOUGH AND KNEAD BRIEFLY (15X) (For the CI ANK Bread).
2.) RETARD THE DOUGH 24 HOURS IN THE REFRIDGERATOR
3.) FERMENT THE DOUGH 8-18 HOURS AT ROOM TEMPERATURE
4.) SHAPE THE LOAF
5.) PROOF THE LOAF FOR 2 HOURS
6.) FLOUR, SLASH, BAKE
7.) COOL AT LEAST 2 HOURS BEFORE INDULGING

*************************************************************************
SCHEDULE C.)

1) MIX THE DOUGH AND KNEAD BRIEFLY (15X) (For the CI ANK Bread).
2.) FERMENT THE DOUGH 8-18 HOURS AT ROOM TEMPERATURE
4.) SHAPE THE LOAF
5.) RETARD THE DOUGH 24 HOURS IN THE REFRIDGERATOR ("Retarded Proofing")(Or until risen double)
6.) ALLOW THE LOAF TO RETURN TO ROOM TEMPERATURE
7.) FLOUR, SLASH, BAKE
7.) COOL AT LEAST 2 HOURS BEFORE INDULGING

********************************************************************************************

AND YET ANOTHER QUESTION:
What do you do when dough is retarding and rises our of sync with your baking schedule? You write that you allow your dough to retard until you are ready to bake, however, if it is unadvisable to allow dough to overrise, do you simply keep knocking it down until you are ready to procede with the proofing stage?

Thanks for you help and this extraordinary site! Gotta run off to my French class! Greetings from the Provence, blue skies and into the 3rd day of 130 km Mistral (North Wind)!

By the way, yesterday we enjoyed my first loaf of CI ANK Bread made with Leffe Cloister Beer (Belgian) and Japanese Rice Vinegar. I used bread flour and whole wheat, and It turned out light, chewy, crusty, and delicious. It boasted very big holes (the dough was quite soft, so it spread a bit more than it sprung, but the crumb was perfect!). I plan to try a loaf using apple vinegar and hard, dry cider from Normandy. (It has the same alcohol content as beer).

Greetings, Karil

Mike McGibbon · 1 year ago

Hey Eric… thank you so much for sharing the almost no-knead bread recipe and videos. I've been having great success with using these methods and I absolutely love all the variations I've felt confident employing with these methods. It started simply with using different beers, which as you've all noted here impart great flavor variations, and evolved to altering quantities of beer, flours and vinegar… to even using my beloved 'New Glarus Uff-da Bock' with, so far, my favorite results. I'm baking in my outdoor wood fired oven and have found it takes roughly 45min, at 500 degrees for the breads to reach 200+ degrees. Additionally, I've been using some tin foil to cover the loaves during part of the bake to protect the crust, as the wetter dough does take a little longer to reach a bake in my oven compared to a traditional kneaded dough. I'll try to send a picture of yesterdays bake.

Thanks again, Eric and all, for your wonderful website!

-Mike

PS Looks like those new bread knives are going to be a winner.

See more of Mike's photos by clicking here.

Lori · 1 year ago

Hi Eric, I have a question regarding the ANK and the final rise. I learned a technique for enhancing the final rise by heating water in the microwave until it boils. Then using the moist, warm environment to allow the dough to rise in. Since this recipe calls for 2 hours for the final rise, does enhancing the environment decrease the final rise time? If so, how can I judge when it's ready to bake? ALSO, thanks for the quick shipment. I received the dough hook and will gladly anticipate the arrival of the dough scraper next week sometime. Will try to download the pictures I took of my last loaf. YUM!!

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Mike. That sounds great. You HAVE to email me some pictures so I can post them here. Can you include a shot of your outdoor oven too?

Edit: Mike did - see just above. The word "WOW" comes immediately to mind.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Lori,

I imagine a warmer environment would (or at least could) shorten the final rise time. One technique for testing readiness is depress the dough a little with a finger and if the depression comes back a little but not all the way, it's ready. You want to bake it just before it's fully risen. Easier said than done. If you bake the same loaf enough, sometimes you just get so you can tell visually when it's ready.

Just curious though why speed it up. If you're just needing to make the proofing schedule fit your schedule or something else?

Lori O · 1 year ago

Thanks Eric. Making bread requires much patience....I am still learning!! :-) I guess that's why I try to speed it up. That and the fact that I am quickly becoming addicted to this wonderful bread. I get disappointed when I wake up in the morning and realize that I forgot to mix up a batch the night before. :-) hehe! Is there a group for me? No Knead Breadaholics Anonymous? I'm pretty sure I would't be alone!! Thanks for making this so fun!

Jo-Ann · 1 year ago

Hi Eric
I am really getting addicted to the NK bread.. I tell my husband, 'hurry up and finish this bread so I can make some more'. Guess I'll have to start baking bread for the neighborhood.
I also love the wetter batches as they seem to make the more moist and best crumb bread. They are very comparable to the Italian 'Vienna Breads' that I had as a child.[long time ago] They make great sandwiches

Just finished watching the ANKB videos, and once again, they were great.. I am planning on trying them out this week. One WW and one white.. I have 2 oblong oven bakers, one new and have a question.
Should I oil the pans? I've tried this once before and with a high temp, the oil turns black. It doesn't harm the pan and I just wipe away the excess. Know that you'd have a tip or two.
again, thanks for your time
jo-ann

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Jo-Ann. I'm glad you're having such a good time with all this. My experience with oiling the pans is that I never have and I've never had a problem with sticking. I seem to recall someone saying they did get some sticking but I think it's rare with the ceramic material and would only be a problem for a short while when you first start using them. After some use, they seem to season and "break in" in their own way.

But please let me know if you end up having a completely different experience :).

Lori · 1 year ago

This is a question for Malcolm Kronby,:-) I have a question about the 'poolish'. I made the CI Ank bread and allowed the dough to sit out the 18 hours. I then took a portion of the dough and put it in the fridge to add to my next batch. Once I create the next batch, I'm assuming that I should take a portion of that mixed dough that includes the 'poolish' and set it aside for the next batch and so on. My question is, do I need to let the new 'poolish' sit out on the counter for any amount of time before putting it in the fridge so it can ferment more? Thanks for the help. Also, please tell me if I am doing this wrong. :-)

Ann Timms · 1 year ago

Hi Eric, so nice to hear from you. I had been thinking of asking whether you had tried the ANK bread but you beat me to it. Great videos, and nice to get the variations. My latest batch used another of your ideas - I used 3oz of steel cut oats and 3oz of white whole wheat flour. Made a delicious loaf and I think it will be my regular version. I don't care for "sweet" bread so didn't add any sweetener. Thanks again, best to you and Denyce, Ann.

Kirsty · 1 year ago

Hi,
I just wanted to let you know that I have just tried a wonderful, moist variation on the recipe, using 140g White breadflour, 140g wholewheat, 80g spelt flour and 50g steel cut oats ( I used the conversion 1oz = 28g for us metric people in Canada)

I have just started another with 140g each of white, spelt and graham flour. I want to try making the dough into buns - has anyone tried this and adapted cooking in the cast-iron pot successfully?

Any feedback appreciated and thanks for sharing all this great information

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Malcolm is traveling out of the country but emailed this response and the one just below...

Hi Lori:

Just mix the reserved poolish into the new batch of dough, as you describe. No need to let it sit out.

You're doing it right.

Malcolm

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Message for Karil Reuss:

Schedule A and B: Just as you describe the process; both will work.

Schedule C: I would not ferment the dough fully, and then
refrigerate. Stick with A or B.

If the risen dough is not in sync with my baking schedule, I just put it back in the refrigerator until I'm ready. I would not punch it down.

BTW, I suspect that your bread flour is softer - has less protein - than American, which usually has less protein than Canadian flour (I'm in Toronto). That's not bad, it's just a a fact, and may account for the spread.

Message for Bruce:

You asked how long the refrigerated dough will remain good, or what is the point of no return. II have been away for a while, and baked a loaf with dough that had been refrigerated for at lleast twelve days. The bread was deliciously complex.

Malcolm

Beth · 1 year ago

I have seen all of this talk about a poolish, but I missed the initial recipe and technique/procedure. Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks! I'm excited to try another bread technique. Just more fuel for the.... addiction?

Karil Rauss · 1 year ago

Dear Malcolm

Thank you for the enlightenment: I think I've got the picture now of the fermenting and proofing schedules with and without retardaton. The CI ANK dough is really very forgiving. I've made it several times now with various flour mixtures, and each time it was delicious. I made the last loaf replacing the whole wheat with rye flour and using apple cider and apple vinegar. It was very chewy and flavorful, but I missed the nutty flavor of whole wheat. At the moment I have a 100% whole wheat loaf proofing. When I got up this morning it had fermented 18 hours and was quite a bit more than twice the volume. I hope it has the punch for the proofing.

Yes,the bread flour here is lower in protein. The flour that I buy in the local bio shop ranges between 10% and 11% protein, and both the white and the whole wheat bread flour ("Hovis"brand) that I can buy in the "Best of British" shop nearby is 14.2% (but, unfortunately, it is not bio). I tried using a bit less water, and that helps give a bit firmer dough without compromising the lightness or the crumb.

Thank you again for your help.

Karil

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Karil · 1 year ago

Dear Eric

Yesterday the postman delivered the Danish Dough Whisk I ordered last week. So I immediately set about preparing a dough (which is now proofing after an 18 hour rise). It is truly a magic wand—so effective and so easy to clean. Thank you, Thank you!

Why, by the way, is it referred to as a Danish Dough Whisk?

Greetings,

Karil

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breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Karil,

I'm glad you like the dough whisk. I think for now on I will call it a magic wand.

As for why it's called a Danish dough whisk, I intend to find out. (For those who don't know, it is manufactured in Poland). I'll be seeing the owner of the company that imports them to the US this weekend at a housewares trade show in Chicago. I have actually written down your question. I've wondered myself.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Also from Malcolm...

Beth:

My recipe for a poolish is:

100 grams of flour (I like to use rye flour)
75 grams of water
1/2 tsp instant yeast

Beth · 1 year ago

Thanks, Malcolm (and Eric). Is there a way to convert it to sourdough instead of yeast? Also wonder if there is anything I can use in place of the barley malt extract? Is it functional or for color?

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Beth. Here's my take on your question...

I have converted this recipe to sourdough by just adding a 1/4 cup in place of the yeast. If you do that, you might want to allow the proof to go closer to the 18 end of the range since it typically works more slowly than yeast.

The barley malt adds flavor and a boost to the yeast since it's food for the yeast too. I think someone mentioned molasses as a substitute for barley malt. But I think this is more a question for Malcolm and/or someone else.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Beth:

The answer is: molasses.

Malcolm

Dana · 1 year ago

I've just come across the CI ANK recipe video via a podcast I found on iTunes. I thought that I'd Google for a copy of the text and found this thread. I'm fascinated by the many "takes" on the recipe that all of you have brought to the party. I'm heading out to my kitchen now to start my poolish!!!

Thanks for all of the great ideas!

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Sherman Janes · 1 year ago

Hi All;

I have been making the almost no-knead bread with sourdough and getting very good results. What I do different is I use the cooks-illustrated hydration and methods including the kneading. But I replace the beer and vinegar with just plain water. I end up with a very good sourdough bread with a more sandwich like crumb. My kids ask for 2 inch slices because they like the crumb so much. I have done the white and whole-wheat versions and they have worked fine for me. And it still takes very little effort.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

That's excellent, Sherman. Great information. Simple and good bread, I love it. Thanks.

Carolyn · 1 year ago

Hi,
Having found this site a few days ago I've become addicted. Thank you for making all this wonderfully helpful information (and videos) available! I started with the basic recipe for Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes, which baked nicely but lacked flavor. Then I moved on to the basic Almost NKB which tasted much better and looked lovely. Yesterday I tried the Whole Wheat Almost NKB, but substituted a sourdough starter for the yeast. Yummy!

The only consistent problem I've had is a bottom crust that is way too dark. I'm using a Lodge enameled cast iron dutch oven. I preheat it to just 475, reduce it to 425 when the dough goes in. I take the lid off after 30 min. and continue uncovered for another 20. I'm also using the parchment paper sling to move the dough into the dutch oven so there is parchment under the dough. The inside of the loaf is great, I check the temp. and cook to about 205. The top crust is a bit tough perhaps but otherwise all seems good. I'm a novice so don't have anything to compare to.

Can you suggest something to keep from scorching the bottom of my loaf?

Thanks so much!

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Carolyn,

Richard Walker responded to your question with this (it came via email)…

I checked the temperature of my oven (against what the oven knob was set at) with a couple other oven thermometers and found that my oven temperature was 50-75 degrees hotter than what it was supposed to be. I made a little chart of actual oven temperature vs. the oven knob setting and that eliminated all the burned food. I now set the knob to about 275 in order to get an oven of 350 degrees F.

Thanks Richard.

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Carolyn · 1 year ago

Ok... I checked the setting vs the oven thermometer today. Settings of 450, 475, and 500 the therm. reads about 12 degrees higher. At lower settings of 350 and 400 the therm. reads 20 degrees hotter.
So... I guess I need to turn down my oven settings about 15-20 degrees when I'm baking. (Another argument in support of buying a new stove! hee hee hee.)

This site is the first place I've seen instructions to measure the internal temp. of my bread. Great suggestion to take the guesswork out of the equation!

So now I have another question... What is the purpose of starting the oven at such a high temp? Why not just 400 (as an example) for the full time?

Thanks for all your help!
Carolyn

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Yes! I think the REAL solution is a new Wolf or Viking oven <img src="/wp-content/plugins/sem-wysiwyg/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/msn/regular_smile.gif" alt="">.</img>

Good question on why the high temp. You can bake it at a lower temperatures and longer time, but you probably wouldn't get the "artisan" effects of the thicker, crispy crust and good oven spring that gives the open hole structure (big holes) to the same extent as with high temps.

The higher temp more closely simulates a hot wood burning hearth oven that many feel produces the best artisan breads.

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Jeffrey · 1 year ago

>> Carolyn wrote: "The only consistent problem I've had is a bottom crust that is way too dark. I'm using a Lodge enameled cast iron dutch oven."

I haven't tried this, but maybe instead of changing oven temperature, you could put a cookie sheet or something similar on the rack underneath your dutch oven thus increasing the bottom insulation. I once made the mistake of baking a pie on a cookie sheet. Very gooey crust.

I noticed that the oven used in the videos is a gas oven. I think electric ovens have different baking characteristics, even if an oven-thermometer says the temperatures are the same, and it may be helpful to reduce the recipe temperatures by 25 degrees F.

I use a La Cloche (which I got at Williams-Sonoma for more money, darn it. "cloche" is French for "bell", BTW.) They are truly wonderful. Anyway, as I recall, the instructions (which I've lost & can't reference) said to preheat the oven to 475 degrees F., to put the un-preheated, room-temperature La Cloche with the dough in it and lid on into the oven and bake for 10-15 minutes, turn down the oven to 400 F. and bake another 15 minutes, then remove the lid and bake for another 5-10 minutes or until the crust is the right temperature.

This set of instructions has worked wonderfully well for me. I get lots of oven-spring and beautiful breads. The method is a bit safer, vis-a-vis buring yourself. However, I am going to try the video instructions just to see what will happen.

B Pack · 1 year ago

Wow, the best damn sourdough bread i have ever tasted. Whole grain recipe. Thanks, Berkley her in Utah

Ed · 1 year ago

Are you going to put the sandwich version on Youtube?

breadtopia · 1 year ago

I guess I should do that. Does the video on my site not work for you?

Rosemary C · 1 year ago

I had tried the New York Times recipe and ARTISAN BREAD IN 5 MINUTES A DAY, and then discovered your web site. I grew up in San Francisco, a few blocks from Boudin bakery and so I am so stoked with your recipes and videos. We have a beach house at Sea Ranch on the Mendocino Coast, so last week I brought my cast iron pot and your recipes up there. I did a lot of experimenting, and my husband loved it. Our favorite was the steel cut oat bread. Thank you for your wonderful site and terrific videos. I'm trying the Parmesan /Olive next.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Rosemary,

Thanks for the nice post and compliment.

Bread baking on the Mendocino coast - what could be better? I'm hosting a small bread baking workshop this afternoon as part of an Eco Fair going on in town this weekend. I've got a loaf of Parmesan/Olive in the works (with sourdough starter originated in San Francisco). That's my attention getter, they won't stand a chance ;).

Ed · 1 year ago

I like this version much better than the "easy bread" version on youtube. I still didn't get a great 2nd rise but I may have let the first rise go too long. Very flavorful and not crumbly at all.

sandy · 1 year ago

I have a bakers stone that is very big, covers my whole oven rack. I am ashamed to say, I have never used it. Dumb question. Can I use the LaCloche on the bakers stone? Or is the bakers stone just to be used by itself? Also, finally got to watch a few of the videos today, they are so great, thank you so much for them. I learned a lot! sandy

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Sandy. Not a dumb question at all. Yes, you can. What I do is just place the dome of the cloche directly on the stone. So I don't use the cloche base in this case.

Just remember to bring the stone and cloche up to temperature together.

Bruce · 1 year ago

Hello friend Malcolm Kronby:

The press of making a living has kept me from baking much for the last two months. But I’m back to the kitchen now.

Your posts regarding the methods you follow have been an extremely helpful addition to the no-knead phenomenon.

I have stumbled across a site where a woman named Bryanna has attempted a synthesis of the NYT no-knead method and the parallel “five-minute-bread” method popularized in a recent book. She respects the Lahey/NYT no-knead and baking methods but believes that cold, slow storage greatly improves the flavor of the bread. You should see the picture of her most recent loaf at:

http://veganfeastkitchen.blogspot.com/2008/03/5...

I recommend that all of Eric’s faithful readers give Bryanna’s recipe a try. Or at least a half recipe.

Bryanna’s resulting method is strikingly similar to the Malcolm approach. She doesn’t use a poolish and she ferments the dough at room temperature for a couple of hours before retarding in the fridge (which to some extent mimics your poolish at room temperature). Her hydration is a little higher. Her only addition to the four basic bread ingredients is a little bit of olive oil. Other than those differences, she is a Malcolm Kronby devotee! She claims that she can keep her dough in the fridge for two weeks, baking off portions whenever she has the time, need and desire.

Bryanna only proofs her loaves for 45-60 minutes before baking them using the Jim Lahey NYT dutch-oven method. I’m not sure that she has discovered parchment paper slings yet. By the way, I think your longer proofing times makes more sense.

Great minds do think alike!

I am convinced that no-knead formulas which include extended storage in the fridge are the key to better flavor and keeping quality. You are a trail blazer. Thanks.

And, as always, thank you, Eric, for all that you do. I wouldn’t be making NKB in any style without your encouragement.

Best, Bruce

Carolee · 1 year ago

I am new to the site and just received my dough whisk that I love. I am totally enjoying the posts as well. I am going to try the CI ANK bread tomorrow. I saw a yeast cornbread mentioned but did not find a recipe. Can someone point me to where I might find it? Thanks heartly to Eric, Malcom and Bruce and all for all your information.

many blessings, carolee

Carolee · 1 year ago

Another beginners question, any reason why I can't use my large postal scale to measure out the ingredients?

carolee

Richard L Walker · 1 year ago

Any accurate scale can be used. The advantage to a scale made for cooking (and some others) is that they can be set to zero after a bowl or container is placed on them. That way you just measure what you want in the recipe. If there is no way to set it to zero with a container on the scale just weigh the container separately and be certain to include that weight to any ingredients you are weighing.
Have fun.

Carolyn · 1 year ago

Hi, I just got my scale for Mothers Day, my hubby was a sweetheart and ordered for me here at Breadtopia! Now I, too, have a question. In one of the videos I recall seeing liquid added, I can't remember how much, but let's just say 8 oz.. The scale was being used to measure this. I thought it odd at the time, because I know 1 cup is 8 LIQUID ounces. So I weighed 1 cup of water -- it does NOT weigh 8 oz.

So my question is... are these recipes for Liquid ounces or ounces measured on a scale?

Carolee · 1 year ago

Thank you,Richard, for answering my question. My scale does go back to zero. I'm going to try a batch tonight. Thanks, again.
carolee

Richard L Walker · 1 year ago

For a recipe that has "weight" specifications, the ounces specified by the recipe is by weight and would be what the scale shows. If the recipe is specifying everything by volume, 8oz would be volume. Pure water is what folks calibrated by with the 1 gm = 1 cc or 1 fluid oz of water is about 1 oz weight. When you pick another liquid it is like changing flours. They weight differently. It gets confusing when you talk about 8 oz of anything. When you hold a measuring cup in your hand you tend to think volume. When you go to a scale you tend to think weight. They aren't the same. if you end up confused, check out different recipes and you will find a definite weight vs volume comparison and be able to figure out what to apply to your own recipe.
Good luck.

Ken Trease · 1 year ago

I just checked my scale and water is very close to 1 oz liquid measure = 1 oz by weight. I have always used the measures as equal for water-but not for any other ingredients.

Richard L Walker · 1 year ago

I just got a thought. Did you put the measuring cup on the scale, zero it out and THEN add the 8 oz water to weight it? 8 oz volume should be about 8 oz weight (with water) after you have gotten rid of the influence of the weight of the measuring cup

Beth in UT · 1 year ago

So, all of this talk (I get an email each time :) ) is getting me excited! I never tried the poolish, truthfully, it looked daunting. But, after reviewing Malcolm's instructions, I am ready to give it a try. I am proofing tonight and can't wait to give it a go!

Carolyn · 1 year ago

Richard & Ken,
Thanks for the responses. I have now done what I should have done before asking, i.e. I looked up the actual weight of water and did the math. Although a liquid cup of water weighs a bit more than 8 oz. , it's only 8.34 oz.

MY cup of water weighed LESS than 8 oz., and yes, I did zero the scale before I added the water. So I've learned that when I use my measuring cups for either flour OR water, I may be off. All the more reason for using my new scale, huh?

Mystery solved.

Carolee · 1 year ago

I went back and read all the posts and found the Cornbread recipe, but I have ANOTHER beginners question. Does cutting marks in the top of the loaf serve a purpose other than just being pretty? Thanks, again.
carolee

Richard L Walker · 1 year ago

Ha! Got me. It might be as simple as dictating where you want the separations in the bread to occur while baking ... but in truth, I don't know. I'll defer to one of the pros. This is one of those things I've just always done.

Karil · 1 year ago

Hello Carolee

I am not one of the pros, but as I understand it, crusty artisan breads need a vent to allow steam to escape from the more hydrated dough—especially during the oven rise and the crust formation. If a vent is not provided, the crust will tear in a random way that may not be very attractive to the loaf. Therefore, the slash is both functional as well as aesthetic. In addition, it can provide information—a kind of signature. Some bakeries also use different slash patterns to identify different kinds of loaves, just as confectioners have their various swirls to identify what you will find when you bite into a chocolate confection.

Greetings,
Karil

Jeffey · 1 year ago

Couple thoughts after reading some of the recent posts in this thread:

My understanding of several recent bread books is that slashing the dough enables higher oven-spring by giving the dough more room to expand in baking. The wettest doughs (ciabatta, for instance) are not slashed, mostly I think because 1. they're so wet, they don't cooperate at all with the knife, razor-blade or lamé, and 2. they will deflate a lot.

It was a surprise to me to learn that water weighs about 8.35 ounces per 8 liquid-ounce cup. I did a little more math, and worked it out that the difference represents about 2 tsp. water per cup of water used, which translates into about a 1% difference in hydration for simple recipes (flour, water, salt, yeast). For some artisnal breads, that's a meaningful difference.

But all this only has real significance if you venture into the more 'refined' art of making certain artisnal breads. Even in those instances, getting a feel for what's right has a lot more to do with producing great bread than the accuracy of any measuring device (scale, cup, spoon, hand, egg-shell, etc.) For the most part, even artisnal bread is very forgiving, and such vagaries in measurement won't change the outcome.

Beth in UT · 1 year ago

Malcolm, is there any reason that the dough couldn't be frozen?

All of you doing this the sourdough way, can you think of a reason not to freeze the "loaves"?

Richard L Walker · 1 year ago

Eating frozen loaves can be hard on the teeth? (ducking)

Beth in UT · 1 year ago

Richard, Don't quit your day job! :)

Let me re-phrase: Could I freeze the dough and then thaw and use according to directions?

Better?

Beth in UT · 1 year ago

Woo Hoo! My first loaf of poolish bread is in the oven, almost done. It looks beautiful! I used the parchment sling and I am so happy with the results. It kept its shape perfectly, I've always struggled with moving it from a proofing basket. It was looking a little dark, so I turned the heat down from 500 to 400 about 20 min. into it. I'll use my instant read therm. to check for done-ness.

I'd love to post pics, but I can't remember how to get them on the site. Reminders, anyone?

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Beth,

That's great!

I'd love to put up your pictures. You'll need to email them to me and I'll attach them to your above post. Thanks.

Beth in UT · 1 year ago

I'm sending them to you. I was really impressed with how forgiving this recipe is. I used sourdough and it rose WAY too much over night. I refolded it and it rose again within only a few hours. Sooooo pretty!

Malcolm Kronby · 1 year ago

Excuse the delayed reply. I've been out of the country for the past three weeks.

Bruce:

Thanks for your kind comments.

Beth in UT:

Freezing the dough is OK.

Recalculation of Recipe:

I've been making enough dough for three loaves, and leaving it refrigerated until ready to use, as set out in previous posts: see, for example Feb. 29, 2008.

These quantities are easier to work with:

Poolish, say 100 g rye flour, 100 g water, 1 tsp instant yeast

1000 g flour, whatever you like, but adding 1 tbs of vital wheat gluten for every 200 g of low-gluten flour such as rye or spelt or whole-wheat. My basic mix is 600 g of unbleached stone-ground organic white flour, and 400 g of Robin Hood MultiGrain, a Canadian flour that behaves like any bread flour and thus needs no extra gluten.

750 g water. This is slightly variable depending on the protein content of the flour and ambient humidity, so I usually start with 700 g and add more as needed until all the dry flour is hydrated.

2 tsp instant yeast

3 tsp sea salt

Optional: vinegar and malt mix; see Feb. 29 post

Mix up the dough, and refrigerate until needed. Then, you can cut off 550 g at a time, the amount amount for one good-sized loaf (550 g is just about 1 1/4 pounds).

After making three loaves, you should have about 200 g of dough left over. That becomes the poolish for your next batch.

Cheers,

Malcolm

June · 1 year ago

I just performed 2 experiments using the NK dough to make baguettes and it worked! The first batch I let the dough rise undisturbed for 18 hours, split the dough into 2 baguette-ish shapes and let them rise on flour-covered napkins, since I have no couche. After their rise I turned them onto my 2-baguette pan and popped them into the oven. I spritzed the loaves and the oven liberally with water several times. I ended up with 2 decent loaves with great color, crust, and crumb- airy and light. Today I used the same dough but twice during its rise I plopped it out on the counter and did the envelope fold. It grew up like crazy after the first fold so I did it again- I think it rose even faster after that! Once again I baked them in the baguette pan- and there was definitely more mass than the first batch. Hmmmm. I also slashed (or rather, cut with a pair of kitchen shears) and once again did the steam-making thing. The second batch is a full 25% larger than the first batch. Go figure. Of course on most days I am not here to give the bread 2 or 3 folds during its rise, but it sure made a difference in the final product. And the second batch was a different color than the first- more tannish than white.
They both taste great- I just made hot sammies with pieces of each- Italian beef with caramelized onions and au jus. The crust held up well with the juicy meat- no leak-throughs.
Next I will try making buns with the dough- or how about focaccia?? Stay tuned...

June

Malcolm Kronby · 1 year ago

Yeast-risen Corn Bread (Correction)

Just noticed a typo in the recipe posted on Feb. 29, 2008. The amount of water was wrongly stated to be 275 g.

These are the correct proportions for one loaf:

240 g unbleached white flour
100 g cornmeal
2 tsp vital wheat gluten
260 g water
1/2 tsp instant yeast
1 tsp salt

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Thanks Malcolm. Typo corrected.

Dale · 1 year ago

This reply is to June's post dated may 26, 2008:

I am trying your method of the baguette NK recipe tomorrow. I live outside of New Orleans and buy at least 1 loaf of good New Orleans French bread every week.

NOONE has the recipe to this wonderful delicate french bread, light, airy, with a flaky crust Many have tried to duplicate it. My first few attempts came out more like baseball bats, lol.

Anyway, your desciption of light and airy baguettes is worth me trying it.

Will let you know how they came out.

Dale

Sharon Cox · 1 year ago

I've never cooked wheat berries. How do you go about doing that?

breadtopia · 1 year ago

You can mix some in with your bread dough before a long proofing period so they have time to absorb some moisture.

Karil · 1 year ago

Hi Sharon
I soak wheatberries overnight (or about 12 hours), rinse them in cool water and sprout them for about two days (out of direct sunlight), until about a millimeter or so of the tiny sprout begins to show. While they are sprouting, rinse them in cool water twice a day and allow them to drain while sprouting. From this point on they are ready to use in dough, salad, whatever.You can even chop them up a bit. You can sprout other seeds or grains, too. Greetings, Karil

Beatrix · 1 year ago

Hi Eric,

thanks for getting me back into bread backing! What a wonderful and helpful site!

So far I have had success with the NYT yeast NK method, but my sourdough attempts have been disasters, not even fit to give to the squirrels. Now I want to try the Almost NK method, saving myself the fight with the sourdough in the current heat and humidity.

I have a question with regard to the whole wheat version of the ANK. The recipe calls for honey. Does the bread taste sweet because of it? Do I really need to include sugar or honey? I don't like sweet bread and the NYT NK method doesn't call for sugar in the whole wheat recipe. Also, my traditional bread recipes never call for sugar. I don't want to cause failure by leaving out the sugar, but I also don't want to end up with a bread I don't like.

Thanks for your help! Great site!

Best, Beatrix

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Beatrix,

In a recent baking of the whole wheat almost no knead bread, I accidentally left out the sugar and it came out fine. Of course the bread didn't have the slight sweetness to it (that I kinda like in this recipe), but otherwise it performed pretty much the same as far as I could tell. It's possible the crust didn't brown up as much as if I had remembered the sugar, but the difference was slight and inconsequential anyway.

So, skip the sugar, but please peek back in and let us know how it went for you.

Marianne · 1 year ago

Dear Eric

I am sooo excited! I challenged myself to learn to bake artisan bread and am so pleased with the results. My order from Breadtopia arrived yesterday, my treat to myself for my upcoming 70th birthday. Many thanks for the most informative videos, Eric. I also want to thank Bruce, my brother in law and a great baker, who has been my mentor and told me about Breadtopia.

My creative instincts are at work and I look forward to enjoying my new hobby, or is it becoming an addiction?

Happy baking,
Marianne

breadtopia · 1 year ago

That's great, Marianne.

It's a nice addiction fortunately!

Beatrix · 1 year ago

(follow-up to June 18th)

Hi Eric,

I baked the whole wheat bread without sugar and it came out very well. By mistake I reversed the amount of whole wheat to bread flour and used 2 cups whole wheat and 1 cup bread flour and it still came out nice and light. I guess the sugar is not necessary, it just depends what flavour you want.
Thanks for your help.

Beatrix

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Beatrix. Thanks for the follow up. That's particularly interesting about your mistake on the flour switch. It's those "mistakes" that often lead to nice discoveries. I've added a note to the above instructions mentioning your finding. A lot of people would rather use more whole wheat flour without risking the proverbial "door stop" loaves.

Eva · 1 year ago

Hi Eric,
could you please let me know the measurements of your loaf pan ( for the Almost No Knead Sandwich version). I have all different size pans and don't want to use anything too large or too small.
Also, I don't seem to be able to get the internal temp. of my WholeWheat(+Rye) Recipe past the 200 degrees mark (should be 210?).
I really enjoy all your postings and hope to perfect this breadbaking soon :)
Thank you, Eva

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Eva,

I use a 9 x 5 pan for that one.

200 degrees should be fine. How did the bread turn out?

Eva · 1 year ago

Thank you for your reply Eric. Will probably try a sandwich loaf as soon as we have eaten the Ryebread.
For my last loaf I used double the recipe in a 5 qt "Lodge Logic" Dutch oven. The loaf gives nicer/bigger slices of bread. Only trouble was, that I had problems reaching the internal temp. of 210F and the crust turned too dark and is tasting too sharp. I had pre-heated the pot at 500F. Baked with the lid on at 450F for 45 Min. then 40 Min uncovered in the pot and another 10 Min uncovered out of the pot. I was not sure if it would have been a good idea to leave the loaf inside the turned off oven to reach a higher internal temp.
My double recipe for "Almost No Knead Bread"
1 1/2 cups Rye
1 1/2 cups 10 Grain
3 cups unbleached Breadflour
1/2 t. Instant yeast
3 t. salt ( I use a little less)
14 oz warm Water
6 oz Beer ( I used 7 oz to empty the bottle)
2 T white vinegar

I let the dough rise over-night; probably about 14 hours or so. For kneading I like to use a little "very light olive oil" on my hands. That way the dough does not stick too much and I wont be tempted to use too much flour. I also slightly oil the whole loaf before placing it on oiled Parchment Paper (in a bowl) and let it rise another two hours.
For baking I also put a pan with very hot water in the oven. I am not sure if it serves any purpose while baking the loaf with the lid on the pot??

The bread tastes super good ( without anything on it) and my husband likes it also.
I just can't make myself wait a day or so before cutting into the loaf. The crust is extremely hard the first day; but, it softens more and more as the days go by. I cut the loaf in half. Double bag each loaf in zip-lock bags and I freeze one half.

Can't wait to try your Parmesan-Olive Bread.

Thanks for having such a wonderful site and sharing your ideas with us
Eva

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Eva,

I could be wrong here, (it wouldn't be the first time ;), but that seems like too much time to be baking your bread and might account for the hard crust. Since 200 degrees internal temperature should be fine, maybe you can cut back some on the total time and temp and still get good results. May be worth a try anyway.

Thanks for the nice post and recipe variation.

Eva · 1 year ago

Hi Eric,
My first loaf I baked at 410F for 30 Min with lid and 25 Min without the lid. The crust was also very hard in the beginning and the center was very moist and "doughy". I had cut into the freshly baked bread while it was barely cool. (Needed "instant" gratification :) )

My second loaf ( 1 1/2 recipes) I baked at 425F for 35 Min with the lid and 30 Min uncovered. The crust was darker and very hard and the center was still moist. Again, I had cut into the loaf early.

My third loaf ( double the recipe ; I like this quantity very much) I baked - as described above - at 450F for 45 Min with lid and 50 Min uncovered. This time the crust was to thick and to hard and it was close to burning, I guess.

The crust on my frist loaf tasted and looked the best.

Could it be that the center of the bread would dry out sufficiently if I left it uncut for a day?

The reason why I increased the time and temp is that since I moved to this new location ( only about 40 Min away from the old one) a few years ago and had a new oven, that I have to increase my baking times very much for just about everything. It's quite frustrating since I had not had any problems for the previous 30+ years of baking in general. (In those days I tried to bake Potatobread and it always came out to heavy) Yes, we did exchange the new oven and still have the problem!!

I'll keep trying; just hope that in the lenghty process we do not gain excessive weight :).

Do you think that I should keep the water in the oven while baking and should I brush the loaf with warm water prior to baking? So far I had just dusted the loaf with flour and scored the top.

Thanks again for your response and suggestion.
Eva

Elaine Wei · 1 year ago

Why is your 3 cups of flour only 15 ounces? I thought a standard one cup measures 8 oz. So I started the 3 cups totalling 24 oz. and the dough looked too dry. I rewatched your video, found out the discrepancy, did another dough using 15 oz. only and the dough looked too watery. Results: the one with 24 oz. looked fabulous. the 15 oz. one was quite flat like a disc.
(Your recipe measurement for liquids is based on 1 cup=8 oz.)
Am I missing something?

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Elaine,

I'm not sure where the confusion is. If the above recipe isn't working for you, I guess you could just play around with the quantities until you find what does work for you.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Eva,

Sounds like you're pretty close on everything and that you just need to keep doing what you're doing before you land on what works best for your circumstances. There's nothing like trial and error to learn quickly and obviously you're not afraid to try new things.

Nico · 1 year ago

This is an amazing site and I really look forward to completing this recipe! I've never made bread before but hope to make a hobby out of it.

Just one question - how necessary is the dutch oven? I don't have one and I'm wondering what I would be compromising or if it is even possible to complete this recipe w/o one. I do have a cast-iron skillet and one of those pizza-stones that doubles as a bread making surface (also, I have corning-ware that has a lid that's supposed to be oven-safe, is that an option?). Can I just set the loaf on one of these, or will the effect of not having that extra enclosed space turn the bread for the worse?

Again, congrats on this site, it is awesome!

Carolyn · 1 year ago

Nico....
Since you have a pizza stone, I have a suggestion. Go to the garden dept. of your favorite store (for me it was wal-mart) and buy a plain terra cotta pot that will fit the dimension of your pizza stone. I chose an "azalea pot" which is shorter. Plug the hole with ball of alum. foil. I flatten the ball of foil after insertion so it won't fall thru. I call this my "frugal cloche"! My only caution is to get a pot wide enough so it goes clear to the edge of the stone -- you DON'T want the pot to accidentally sit on the edge of your bread dough. Trust me, I know -- it's one of my funniest stories ever!

I've been experimenting with a variety of methods including a dutch oven, terra cotta pots, and no cover plus a tray with water (as described in the book "Artisan Bread in 5-minutes A Day"). My favorite is a terra cotta tray & terra cotta flower pot (above). I had some dough that had set in my fridge for 14 full days, it was beginning to weep. So I divided it into 2 loaves and cooked them both at the same time - one in my dutch oven, the other in the terra cotta tray & pot. The loaf in the terra cotta came out MUCH nicer.

I hope this helps.

Katerina · 1 year ago

I too am obsessed with “almost no-knead bread making” I created my first batch of the ‘traditional - white’ this morning. However, I threw the dry ingredients in a bowl and realized my yeast wasn’t “instant yeast”, but “active dry yeast” and I didn’t proof it in water like I should have. So my question is when I get back home today 10 hours later, do you think my dough will have risen? Or will I have to start all over again? Has anyone else made this mistake?

Marilyn B. · 1 year ago

Eric, first, thank you for calling me back the other day. This method is a godsend.Talk about forgiving! Awesome! As I told you, I don't have a cloche or any form of Dutch oven or even a heavy casserole, and my previous attempts at sourdough were all hockey pucks. I just discovered this site after a friend showed me her fantastic NKB's. (She has a Dutch oven).She'd got the recipe from Mother Earth News, and that article pointed one to Breadtopia, thank goodness. I wanted to try the sandwich bread version of ANK, but being confused between sourdough vs. regular NKB, I ended up with a hybrid experiment. Used 1/4 cup starter (my own), a combo of white AP flour and whole wheat I ground myself (the 6 oz. I weighed out seemed like too much, so I put some back and made up the difference with white, but don't ask me what the final ratio was)! Don't keep beer around, so used water, but did put in both the vinegar and the honey. Put it in the fridge for about 18 hours, certainly not two days, per Rhine's method, took it out last evening and let it sit covered till I got around to doing something about it today. It rose and got little bubbles, so I sort of punched it down gently and folded it over in the bowl and let it rest. Then I had to wrestle this unruly blob into my buttered ancient aluminum (eek!) bread pan. It kept changing shape! Worried that I was handling it too much, I finally put the loaf pan face down over the blob and inverted the breadboard and all in one neat swoop. Put it in the oven with just the light on for about two hours, when it rose to somewhere near the top of the pan I decided that was enough, heated the oven to 425 and put it back in, turned it down to 350, baked it for about 45 min., didn't seem quite done, internal temp about 190, put it back in for somewhere between 7 and 10 min.to 200. Result: Not the highest loaf, but definitely light--not an anvil! Lovely texture inside, even a couple of those big holes so many of you seem to favor, wonderful fllavor (a little too much, might leave out the vinegar next time), crust a little hard, but I buttered it while hot, hope it will soften. I cut into it after about 45 min. (devil made me do it!). There's light at the end of the tunnel!

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Marilyn,

Now that is one great story! I love it.

btw - the round cloche weighs 8 lbs.

Marianne · 1 year ago

Hi Eric,

I am working my way through your variation recipes and have a question about the Seeded Sour Bread, particularly the amaranth and millet. I found both in our local health food store, amaranth flour and millet flour, also millet in granular form. Does your recipe call for the flour form or the granular form? Does amaranth come in a granular form? Wanted to ask before I bought the wrong thing.

Love my new hobby!

Marianne

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Marianne,

The amaranth and the millet in the Seeded Sour recipe are both in the whole granular form. Not flour.

It's one of my all time favorite breads. Good luck with it.

Mary · 1 year ago

Howdy Eric,

I, too, am making my way through all the recipes/variations on your website. I am achieving great results following your instructions and also suggestions of other readers. I have been converted to a die-hard scale user and am getting excellent/consistent results. I tell you this so you know that my question is strictly for curiosity and not because I am having any problems. Would you tell me how you arrived at the 5 oz. - one cup determination? I notice that King Arthur thinks that 4.25 ounces is a cup. So, I was just wondering how you came to make it 5 oz? It works - it works! So, I'm just asking - - -

Thanks again for a terrific site! Mary

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hey Mary,

Glad things are going well. Now I'm trying to remember how I came up with 5 oz to a cup. I know King Arthur teaches to really fluff up your flour before gently sprinkling it into a measuring cup. Then run a bench knife over the rim of the cup to perfectly level it out. This is great advise. So I just came back from the kitchen were I did just that and the cup weighed 4.5 ounces. The extra .25 ounces could be from the higher humidity of our lovely suffocating weather lately. (we do run a/c, but still...)

So now I'm thinking that the 5 ounces comes from how I usually measure flour when I'm not using a scale, and that's by dipping my measuring cup directly into the flour canister and shaking it level. Definitely NOT great advice.

I, too, have become a die-hard scale user. :)

ApologiesToTheQue · 1 year ago

Guys,

Awesome site, and thanks so much for this particular video. I'd done the no-knead several times, but I think yesterday's effort on the 'almost-no-knead' came out even better. Very moreish. (photos here http://apologiestotheque.blogspot.com/2008/08/i...)

(Also some pizza photos under the food category - might give your recipe a run on the weekend!)

Marilyn B. · 1 year ago

So, Malcolm, do I understand that once you have a poolish going you don't need to keep babying starter? Or using yeast at all? Excuse me if this has already been asked; I thought I saw such a question, but can't find it on any of the breadtopia sections. Would poolish work as leaven in oldl-fashioned kneaded bread?
Thank you.
Marilyn B.

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

There seems to be some vagueness about terminology on this thread, so I thought I'd throw in some info gleaned from Maggie Glezer's book _Artisan Baking_

First of all, there are several types of yeasted pre-ferments which are used in kneaded bread making both to improve flavor and strengthen bread structure:
Poolish, Biga, Pate Fermente (aka scrap dough aka old dough), Sponge (aka Levain-leveur), and Mixed Started (aka levain de pate, travail sur rafraichi, or travail mixte).

Poolish is made of flour, lots of water and yeast, and is quite batter-like in consistency; Biga is made of flour, yeast and considerably less water, and is quite stiff. Both are allowed to ferment for a fairly long time before combining with more flour and other ingredients to make the final dough. Neither Poolsih or Biga contain salt, which is added later. Technically speaking, if it contains salt, it isn't Poolish or Biga, but rather is probably Pate fermente - a scrap of the final dough, containing everything the dough does, including salt.

Neither Sponge or Mixed Starters seem to be used in the Glezer recipes. Sponge may or may not contain salt. Mixed Starter seems to be an actual leavening agent built from a piece of scrap dough, but I can't be certain. I'm ignoring these two.

Anyway, in the Glezer recipes, whenever a Biga, Poolish or Pate Ferement is used, the final dough also includes additional yeast. That's probably why they're called "pre-ferements" rather than "starters" - you can't rely on them exclusively to leaven the bread. In addition, once they get a little age on them, using them as such would be unreliable, because the kind of yeast will have lost it's potency. They'd still be good for flavor, just not leavening action.

It's quite possible that, if you were making bread every day, you could use a piece of dough from yesterday's batch to start a new dough (a Mixed Starter), it would work - there'd be enough yeast still active to do the job. Otherwise, you'd have to add yeast to make it work well.

Sourdough starters are different. They are usually Poolish-like or Biga-like (with no salt in either style), and are always used to build the leavening agent for the dough, first by "activating" the starter, then adding more flour and water to the activated start to create the leavening for the dough. I keep my sourdough starters fed on a fairly regular basis, whether or not I'm making bread from them. And when I make sourdough, I use what starter I need from my store, and then separately feed the starter. A great rerference work for sourdough is Dr. Ed Wood's book, Classic Sourdoughs. Dr. Wood uses two styles of starter which he terms "liquid" (Poolish-style) and "Sponge" (Biga-style).

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Malcolm's Reply...

The answer is yes, but....

I usually prepare enough dough for three loaves, keep it refrigerated, and bake as much as I need when I need it.

The amount of poolish for this mix is 150-200 grams, whatever is left from the last batch. This enough for dough to make one loaf, but not, I think, for three.

So I use the poolish with my basic three-loaf mix, which is:

1000 grams of flour
750 (or slightly less) grams of water
1 1/2 teaspoons of instant dry yeas
3 teaspoons of sea salt

The amount of dough for one loaf is 550-600 grams, so after harvesting enough for three loaves, there's 150-200 grams left over. That's the next poolish.

The precise amount of water is matter of feel, and is variable depending on the type of flour or flour mix.

Hope this helps.

Malcolm

Marilyn B. · 1 year ago

A BIG thank you to Jeffrey and Malcolm. Glad to have all those French phrases translated and explained, for one thing, since I know nothing about European breads, never heard of artisan breads before coming upon Breadtopia (still not sure what constitutes "artisan"---big holes, crust you have to cut with a fine hacksaw?).

I might be in the wrong place, because I can hardly lift a cast iron anything and hate the idea of heating the oven to 500 degrees when it's 100 outside (and the price of propane is tied to the price of oil and gas). I thought not having to knead would be great, but actually I kind of enjoy it. All I really want to do is make sourdough loaves shaped like sandwich bread, so I can make toast with squarish pieces.

But I have enjoyed the conversations on this site, especially the courteous and friendly way in which you all have shared your knowledge and experience. I will definitely look up Ed Wood's book. Thanks again.

Marilyn B.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Marilyn,

I'm with you on baking indoors when it's baking hot outdoors. We're on propane too. Denyce and I recently purchased a convection toaster oven at Target for about $70 and it actually seems pretty well made (Emerson model TOR23). It's large enough to fit a 4 quart Dutch oven or a 12" pizza stone for medium size pizza. Denyce has already baked eggplant lasagna and brownies in it with results as good as a regular oven when used in convection mode. My bread doesn't know the difference from our oven.

The kicker is that we did all this baking on our outdoor back deck. The oven is very light to carry. I can't believe we didn't do this ages ago as we had talked about it casually. Just thought I'd mention it here.

BTW - here's a little write up on Ed Wood's book Classic Sourdoughs

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

My wife bought a counter-top convection oven, but it never occurred to me to use it outside during the summer. Call me Duh-umbo. One thing about small ovens: they act somewhat like La Cloche, in that the small space traps more moisture as it bakes out of the bread. When I do try out the convection oven, I'll be interested to see if there's a difference between baking in convection mode and regular mode.

If all you're looking for is sandwich bread, then just using loaf-pans in the oven, preheated for a shorter period of time, would do fine. I always preferred heavy glass loaf-pans over thin metal ones, but have never used heavy metal pans.

Some thoughts on sourdough (which I have come to prefer over commercially-yeasted breads):

While Dr. Wood's book is truly a must-have for the care and feeding of sourdough cultures, I find the recipes in Glezer's _Artisan Baking_ to be easier to follow - more directive, if you will - more detail in the steps to be taken. They make more sense to me.

One of the techniques described in Dr. Wood's book is "washing" the starter, where a really old starter is rejuvenated by seriously diluting it in water, then feeding it. I've used this technique several times to rejuvenate some starter that had been sitting in the refrigerator for about a year, maybe more, without feeding or care. It came right back to life. Also, I bought a mild French starter from Dr. Wood, which I really like. Never had much luck getting my own starter going.

What's the difference between using a liquid, poolish-style sourdough starter and a firm, Biga-style starter: depends on the book you're reading. Dr. Wood says the result is pretty much the same; Peter Reinhart in _Crust and Crumb_ says liquid is more sour, while in _Bread Baker's Apprentice_ says firm is more sour; Maggie Glezer says that firm starters activated and nurtured in cool temperatures are more sour, while warmer more liquid starters are less sour, and that retarding sourdoughs in the refrigerator increases sourness.

Malcolm Kronby · 1 year ago

To Marilyn B:

Do you have a gas or propane barbecue ?

In hot weather i use a gas barbecue rather than bake in the house.

I put four bricks - ordinary solid construction bricks - on the grill to protect the clay baker or stone from direct heat.

It works perfectly.

Malcolm

Marilyn B. · 1 year ago

Eric, great idea to bake outside. My little electric toaster oven is pretty small and they warn you not to try to cook anythng that would be tall enough to touch any of the elements. It might do for a few bagels!

Jeffrey, I located Ed Wood's book at the library, online, but they tell me it is "not available for request," whatever that means. Since the library is 25 miles away, it will have to wait till next time I go down to the flatlands and into town. They do not have Glezer's book in the catalog, but Amazon has it, and many others. I read the customer reviews and there is much interesting disagreement as to whose book has the best directions, the fewest directions, etc. My, my, my!

No, Malcolm, I do not have a barbecue of any kind, but your idea is terrific. I assume you are talking about the kind that has a fold-down lid. The bricks would really turn it into kind of an oven, wouldn't they? Very clever.

Thank you all for your consideration and suggestions.

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

Marilyn B

The Ed Wood book is a soft-cover book, which may explain why it's not in the lending section of the Library.

Roy Dankman · 1 year ago

I would appreciate your telling us what the brand name is of the convection toaster oven.

The idea of baking out side it great. I live North of Sacramento , Ca and at this time of year 95-100 F is pretty typical. Not heating the kitchen would help with the AC bills.

Eric's edit: It's an Emerson, model TOR23. Currently available at Target stores and Target web site.

Roy Dankman · 1 year ago

I was experimenting with the recipe that Malcom Kronby posted on 2-29-08 using a poolish for the first batch and then using a part of the first batch as “old dough” poolish in the second batch.

The first batch was bread flour and white whole wheat. The bread was fine as to looks and crumb, but I thought it was tasteless . I used 150 grams of that batch as the “poolish” for the second batch.

I used bread flour and dark rye pus some fennel seed, caraway seed and some King Arthur rye flavoring. The bread was bake to 204 degrees internal tempature. This bread tasted great, however, the was a crust problem.

When the bread came out of the oven the crust was hard , but when it cooled off the crust was very soft.

Do you have any idea why the crust would get soft as the bread cooled?

The recipe was:

The 150 grams of poolish (old dough), plus
900 grams of flour: ( 600 g of white bread flour and 300 grams dark rye.)
675 grams of water, plus
1 TBS malt or balsamic vinegar, and
1 TBS barley malt extract
1 tsp of instant yeast
1 TBS of sea salt
3 Tb fennel seed
3 Tb caraway seed
1 Tb King Arthur Deli Rye Flavor.

coyotewoman · 1 year ago

I'm very interested in trying the whole wheat sandwich loaf - any changes recommended for high altitude (7,200 ft) in dry dry Coyote, New Mexico? I've used Lahey's NKB without changes moderate "oven spring" but makes great pizza dough but I want a WW sandwich loaf and the beer intrigues in the recipe me.
Ever tried White whole wheat on this recipe?
Tried any substitutes for sugar like molasses or honey? great videos and website.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Coyotewoman,

Here are several links that will take you directly to comments left by others who bake at high altitute...
Baking at High Altitudes
Baking at High Altitudes
Baking at High Altitudes
Baking at High Altitudes
Baking at High Altitudes
Baking at High Altitudes

White whole wheat, honey, molasses - - all worth a try.

Alma D.V. · 1 year ago

PLEASE DON'T USE FLOWER POTS before checking for lead content!

Take it from experience. I just spent a whole week researching this because I was in love with the idea of buying a terra cotta pot at Home Depot with a base for a few bucks and making it my version of the (expensive) Le Coche. Well, I had this question bugging me as to whether it was safe to cook in. Everything on the internet says that UNGLAZED clay is safe. But a friend suggested I call the manufacturer. The employee at Home Depot told me it was a company out of CA called NorCal Pottery. Found them, called them and they said they did sell to HD and that ALL their pots, even unglazed, contained lead. I never told them I was planning on cooking on it, since I figured they would tell me it wasn't made for it. But I called them because I happened to have a lead test kit at home, and came out basically positive, so I had to call to be sure. So make sure you are absolutely sure of this before you make your precious loaf of bread in a lead pot. :-(.

Virginia · 1 year ago

I just made a sour rye using the Cook's Illustrated Almost No Knead method and it's wonderful. My company raved about it. I used the Whole Wheat recipe and substituted Bob's Red Mill organic dark rye for the whole wheat flour (5 ounces). I also used 1/4 cup of sourdough starter (purchased from Breadtopia) instead of the instant yeast. Everything else was done the same -- I used honey, not sugar as you did. Also I only baked it an additional 10 minutes with the cover off my LaCloche. It got slightly dark but I like it that way. It was fantastic. Thanks for a great website.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

That sounds great, Virginia. I just put a link with the main recipe (above) to direct interested people to your post.

Beth · 1 year ago

My dough is coming out very soft. won't hold a shape, just sort of spreads to cover the bottom of the dutch oven.
At the first mixing stage, it looks just like the video. A little stiff. But, by the time the first 15-18 hours is done, it's very spongy. I knead it just a few times (10-12) adding just a sprinkling of flour, and form it into a shape, but it is soft and kind of slowly fills up the pan I'm using for the 2nd rising.
Then, it rises, very nicely, but I have to bake it in the pan, or grab all the corners of the parchment paper and put the whole thing into the dutch oven. It then spreads to fill up the bottom of the dutch oven.
Should I shorten the 1st rising?
Should I just bake it in a slightly smaller dutch oven? A 5 qt would make the loaf taller.

The first time I used the straight white flour recipe.
Next I tried the larger WW/White combo (2 C WW and 1 C white) recipe

The white flour in the house is Pillsbury unbleached.
I bought a bag of KA whole wheat for the 2nd attempt.

I am visiting my parents house in Florida. It's very humid, but the house is AC'd.
I've weighed the ingredients.
I'd like a more shape holding dough to bake, so I can bake some loaf shapes, instead of all round.

The taste and texture of the bread is wonderful. Nice chewy and bubbly interior and very close or even identical to a good sourdough.
As soon as I can find some rye flour around here, I'm going to try a caraway sour rye.

thanks for any insights!

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

Hi, Beth

From your post, I couldn't tell exactly how your dough sits in your dutch oven when you bake it. I noticed that in the video, when Eric puts the dough into his La Cloche bakers, the parchment paper forms a kind of cradle, which will help support the sides of the bread and give it more upward support.

Other than that, I have a few generalized comments about getting free-standing breads to stand up and not spread out, which is based on my own experience and reading books by Peter Reinhart and Maggie Glezer.

One of the first reasons that some doughs don't stand up is "over-proofing": the dough is allowed to ferment too long. The fermentation process causes the gluten in bread to develop, so that it forms the nice crumb structure and shape - but then, if continued too long, causes the gluten to weaken so that it lacks the tensile strength necessary for a nice free-standing shape and upward rise. Over-proofing can also cause the yeast to become exhausted, so that there's little or no oven-spring when you put the dough into the hot oven.

Another reason for spread and instead of lift is using lower-gluten flour. If you're using all-purpose flour, try using bread flour instead. For the whole wheat recipe, try using some high-gluten flour (like 1/2 to 1 cup or so, substituted for 1/2 to 1 cup of white flour). Shaping is also important: the process in the video where Eric pulls the dough up to the top and pinches it in order to create a lot of surface tension, making the "skin" of the dough tight. This step is extremely important to aid in upward lift.

One of the things I have found in my bread-making is that free-standing loaves with a very open crumb require a very delicate balance among hydration (how much liquid compared to how much flour), gluten content and development, fermentation time, and
the level of physical effort involved in the creating the final dough. The no-knead bread, for instance, has a high hydration (78% by my calculations; french baguettes are about 65-70%). and the very long fermentation period gives the gluten in the dough opportunity to develop. (Gluten development in part is a product of enzyme activity, which is why the no-knead method works so well - the enzymes have time to develop the gluten.) For very high hydration breads like ciabatta, extensive kneading is usually required in addition to long fermentation. Perhaps one of the more significant facts which derives from these relationships is that, if after long fermentation the dough is too wet (and thus too slack), adding flour shortly before bake-time in an effort to make the dough drier isn't going to improve the gluten structure very much - isn't going to help that much with oven-lift, because the gluten in the added flour hasn't had enough time to fully develop. You don't want to knead bread (to develop gluten of the added flour) that is already mostly rising, because doing so will release too much gas that's trapped in the feremented dough. You don't want to give the dough much more time to ferment (again to develop the gluten in the added flour) because then the yeast will become exhausted and the already-developed gluten will weaken. Adding lots of flour after fermentation is mostly done also makes the dough taste too "floury".

Conclusion: It's important to get the flour/water ratio right before fermentation begins, not after it's mostly finished, which takes some experience. Any flour added after fermentation is simply to aid in handling the dough, not to contribute to it's structure and taste.

Based on your post, it really sounds like you're using the right amount of water, but the gluten level of your flour is too low. Also, you might not be getting enough tension on the skin when shaping the loaf for the 2nd rise.

Beth · 1 year ago

thanks Jeff,

I have the dough on parchment paper for 1st rising, but have to put it into some kind of walled container to contain the spread. It starts out correct consistency.
When I carry the parchment with dough to the pot, the dough spreads to fill up the bottom of the pot.

However, I think the problem is over-proofing, as you mentioned. After mixing, the dough looks good in 8 hours, even 12 hours, but I am letting it go to 18.
Same thing for the 2nd rising, I am letting it go 2 or 2 1/2 and it looks ready in under 2.

I think for my next attempt, I will put it in the refrigerator after 4 hours, so it will get the benefit of the 12-18 hours to ferment, but will not over rise, I hope.

And, I have done the pinching to form a skin.
I took pictures of the baked 2nd attempt, the one 2:1 WW to white flour.

Of course, both loafs (all purpose unbleached white, and 2:1 WW to white) baked up perfectly!

The combo bread was pretty bland tasting though. Not enough salt and no real tang. Not sure what happened there, but I used white balsamic vinegar for the 2nd loaf and Sushi Seasoned Rice Vinegar for the 1st one (no white vinegar in the house)

I have to say, this has to be one of the all time most fun to experiment with recipes/techniques.

thanks for your help,

beth

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Beth,

You're doing great.

If you have any pictures you want to send along, please email them to me and I'll add them to your post. It would be nice if people could add photos themselves but I haven't figured out a way to make it possible.

Thanks for your post and thanks Jeffrey for your help.

Eric

John Gordon · 1 year ago

I'm trying to duplicate this recipe using Ultragrain, but without success. The first batch I made with the exact proportions as I use for normal white bread flour, only to check it after 18 hours and find it too dry. I tried adding water at that point but it didn't turn out well.

I just made another batch of both flours and compared the texture after mixing ingredients. White flour seemed a little more strandy, where the Ultragrain seemed to "snap off" when stretching a little.

Any advice appreciated.

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi John,

Could you be more specific with your question? I'm not sure what you're asking. It probably doesn't help that I don't know what Ultragrain is.

John Gordon · 1 year ago

I'm trying to figure out if I need to adjust my proportion of flour to water because I'm using Ultragrain. From the manufacturer's website:

What is Ultragrain?
Ultragrain is the first 100% whole wheat flour that offers whole grain nutrition with a taste, texture and appearance more similar to that of traditional white flour.

ConAgra Mills, the maker of Ultragrain, developed a patent-pending milling process that delivers whole grain flour with the same particle size as traditional refined white flour. The Ultragrain milling process retains the fiber, protein, vitamins, minerals and other phytonutrients concentrated within the bran and germ, while yielding whole grain wheat flour with a taste, ultrasmooth texture and appearance more similar to traditional refined white flour.

NUTRIENTS per 100 grams Refined
Unenriched
Wheat Flour** Traditional
Whole - Grain
Wheat Flour* Ultragrain
Moisture, g/100 g 11.9 10.3 10.3
Calories, Kcal 364 339 339
Carbohydrate, by difference, g/100 g 76.3 72.6 72.6
Total dietary fiber,
g/100 g 2.7 12.2 12.2
Protein 10.3 13.7 13.7
Fat 1.0 1.9 1.9
Ash 0.5 1.6 1.6

VITAMINS
Niacin, mg 1.3 6.4 6.4
Vitiman E, mg ATE 0.1 1.2 1.2
Pantothenic acid, mg 0.4 1.0 1.0
Thiamin, mg 0.1 0.5 0.5
Vitamin B6, mg 0.0 0.3 0.3
Riboflavin, mg 0.0 0.2 0.2
Folate, total, mcg 26 44 44

MINERALS
Potassium, mg 107 405 405
Phosphorus, mg 108 346 346
Magnesium, mg 22 138 138
Calcium, mg 15 34 34
Iron, mg 1.8 3.9 3.9
Manganese, mg 0.7 3.8 3.8
Zinc, mg 0.7 2.9 2.9
Copper, mg 0.1 0.4 0.4
Selenium, mcg 33.9 70.7 70.7
*USDA Whole Grain Wheat Flour data (#20080)
**USDA Refined Unenriched Wheat Flour data (#20081)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ultragrain flour texture is slightly more gritty than normal raw flour. The consistency is similar. I imagine it is used like whole wheat, it just produces a lighter texture. It came out for consumer use last summer and I just got around to trying it. Two large chains(think mainstream bigbox not specialty or boutique) in the southeast carry it.

I know it was long, hope that helped. More info if you google ultragrain but that's a pretty big wall o text I just hit you with.

Thanks!

breadtopia · 1 year ago

I wonder how much it differs from run of the mill whole wheat pastry flour. I'd have to use it a bunch before I'd know how it performs.

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

> John Gordon wrote:
> Any advice appreciated.

Hi, John

Even if the flour is milled more finely, it still contains a lot of bran, which is going to absorb a lot of water which will not have any effect on the gluten structure, and which also means that the gluten is being deprived of part of it's proportional share of water to help build it's structure. So, off-hand, you need to add more water, but, in order to get the gluten structure to form, the right amount has to be in the mix when the yeast is first added to the flour. Big holes and high lift come from well-developed gluten-structure. Adding flour or water after fermentation is basically over with will stiffen or slacken the dough without adding any gluten structure - the stiffer dough will rise higher, but with drier crumb and smaller holes, while adding water will make the dough slack, possibly increasing hole-size, but causing the bread to flatten out.

Since ANK is a basic no-knead method, one possible solution might be a modification of the the "soaker" technique used by Peter Reinhart to increase gluten structure in whole-grain breads. In his recent books, he's suggested soaking whole grains and coarsely-ground grains just in water, but enough only to form a rough, sticky ball. You'd want to increase the amount of water so that later, when you add other ingredients to begin the no-knead fermentation, you can still easily combine them without having to do a lot of work, e.g., perhaps a ratio of 6/5 or 7/5 water to flour, maybe even 8/5. Let it sit for a 3-4 hours, refrigerate overnight, then use the next day to make the rough dough. Add salt at the last possible moment, when you can still work it in - like if you combined all the yeast and water and soaker, let it sit, then add salt and do the 10 or so kneads called for in the recipe.

Also, if you use any white flour, get some very high-gluten flour, proferably organic, and add maybe 1/2 or 1 cup instead of 1/2 or 1 cup white flour.

Carolyn · 1 year ago

To Alma D.V. (146):
Thanks for the heads up on testing clay trays & pots for lead! My pieces are from Italy and Illinois, not the company you mentioned, so I bought a testing kit. I'm very happy to report that the tests are completely negative, not a hint of lead! Yippee, I can keep them! I'm sure glad you told us about the testing kit, thank you!

Aaron Gross · 1 year ago

I made an oops. I misread and put in 1 1/2 tbs salt...did I just make a salt lick bread heh????

breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Aaron,

That's pretty funny. Yea, start looking for a cow pasture to put it in.

Actually, it might be just fine. Salt is a yeast inhibitor so I guess it might not rise as well as usual. On the other hand, it may not be all that noticeable.

Let us know! :)

Aaron Gross · 1 year ago

My salt lick bread is out of the oven looks pretty good...I'll try and get a pic to email back

Aaron's "salt lick" bread

Inside salt lick bread

Sourdough loaf

Inside sourdough

Dave · 1 year ago

I think I'm posting in the right section now. I made my second loaf of this today and it really turned out wonderful. It helps when you remember the salt :). I did no kneading similar to the original no knead recipe. I still don't know why this recipe calls for a little kneading. I also don't detect much of a sourdough flavor. For the next batch I think I will try cider vinegar as another poster has suggested.

Breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Dave. Thanks for the update. I think the reason this recipe calls for a little kneading is it isn't as wet a dough as the basic no knead recipe. When the dough is really wet, the protein molecules manage to align themselves and form the gluten over time all by their little selves. In this recipe a bit of kneading helps accomplish the same thing.

patti · 1 year ago

Hello and good morning
I have just ordered my cloche and dough wisks and am just so very encouraged by this website. I flew to another city last week and scaled the city looking for cloches and different items for bread making. I managed to find a round terra cotta w. lid for ring bread and made my first loaf of parmesan/olive loaf minus the olives.
As an update to my baking list, I have made two loaves of the CI NK breads and am very pleased with the taste, texture and ease of making the breads. I have just completed another sour dough made with a new batch of pineapple starter. It is very similar to my bread made w. the grape starter. Not alot of difference in taste and texture.
I do have a ? or 2... I like to use sprouted wheat berries in breads for the purpose of putting plant sterols in home baking. My first question is regarding the proportion used and if it really matters with the NK or sour dough version? I know sprouted wheat berries adds extra gluten and if I am using a combo of flours would I need to decrease the WW? I like versions of spelt, WW and rye along with white bread flours. I am currently using an Italian make of the bread flour and it might be working well with making it in the bread machine because the proteins balance out here. ( SAF & knead method ). Also would other sprouts such as rye, mung bean, or soy cause differences with flour and liquid measurements? Thanks for any input on these questions ...a little knowledge goes along way in my bread making journals.

Breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Patti,

I think you're just going to have to dive in with these ingredient variations and see what works. Take careful notes. The best thing you have going for you is you already have a good feel for what the dough feels like in the basic recipe so you can try to approximate it as you experiment.

One sprouted grain recipe I'm familiar with has you using about 10 oz of mashed up sprouted wheat, which represents 1/3 of the dough weight. The rest of the flour was regular whole wheat flour. It turned out very well but it also called for more yeast than this one. When experimenting with added ingredients, it doesn't take long before you have a very different recipe and bread.

Maybe someone else can weigh in with a less vague answer. I think I'm watching too many political debates.

patti · 1 year ago

Hello
I am just starting to digestthis info on bigas, par fermente and poolishes. I love this idea of not having to bake all this bread at one time...which is what I have done previously and then freeze the loaves. The poolishes give you an extra span of days to prepare for those bread needs in the week. Tonight I had to stop for bread at Panera and I swear that the loaf I brought home is the CI NK bread. I got some little round ones with slashes on them....hmmmm....could this be Eric's sour dough recipe.
Speaking of sour dough....I made the sour dough pizza last night by using some of the info here and then retarding/fermenting the dough for about two days (not intentional / busy month). I was wonderfully surprised how crispy, light and delicious it turned out. I will keep that process in mind for the next sour dough loaf that I will make in my new Le Cloche. I am totally immersed in this bread venture and now excited to use the Danish dough whisks.
I have this little devlish streak that lurks within and am willing to ask if anyone has ever "fried the dough" as in doughnut; gypsy bread; monkey bread sprinkled with cinn/ sugar?......sounds like something that would go very well with a great cup of coffee too.

Ken Krawford · 1 year ago

I'm going to be on a sailboat for about 9 days later this month. I thought that fresh bread would be a treat but due to logistics, I can't bring my La Cloche along. I tried the whole wheat ANK in a metal 5x9 pan at 465 degrees with aluminum foil over the top of the pan. When the bread hit 200 degrees, I took it out but the bottom was pretty badly burned. The loaf also felt like a brick. Should I have reduced the receipe?
I assume the logical thing would be a lower temperature for a longer time. Any other ideas?
Thanks.

Stephen · 1 year ago

Hi,

I'd never baked a loaf of bread before finding this method, and subsequently this site. Now I bake bread that gets rave reviews.

I love this recipe, both the whole wheat and white versions. After trying a number of standard beers I settled on Guinness Draught because that's what I drink, and because it's used in so many other recipes that I've enjoyed. I add a tsp of raw sugar and it is absolutely wonderful. The white recipe has a great texture and a wonderful color, and the flavor is so smooth and delicious.

Now for my question. How do you all store your bread? A loaf can last as much as three days here and I'm looking for the best way to keep it fresh while maintaining as many of the just-baked qualities as possible.

Thanks for a great site.

Richard L Walker · 1 year ago

I recommend (if possible) using a Dutch oven in lieu of the La Cloche. I'm thrilled with my results. When the bottom of the bread burns by the time the rest of the loaf is done I always recommend double checking the oven temperature using a couple oven thermometers purchased for just that purpose. If you see that the oven thermometers show a higher temperature than indicated on your oven knob, simply turn the temperature knob down until you have the needed temperature on the oven thermometer. Use that instead of the knob. Good luck.

Breadtopia · 1 year ago

Ken -

I agree with Richard about the Dutch oven if breakage is the logistic you're referring to.

Lowering the temperature would probably help. Someone else mentioned that putting a cookie sheet under their baking container (can't remember what kind of vessel they used) provided enough insulation to keep the bread bottom from burning easily. Lacking a cookie sheet on the sail boat, you can probably find something suitable... a trivet or something that will take the heat.

Eric

Breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Stephen,

Figuring out the optimum bread storage system is a challenge for sure. Put it in a plastic bag and the crust gets soft. Leave it out and the crumb gets stale. When I want to prolong the good qualities, I've had decent luck covering just the cut surface with foil and keeping the loaf in a paper bag.

I'll bet others have some good ideas.

Stephen · 1 year ago

Thanks Eric. I was thinking maybe paper. I'll have to try it with the foil. I've tried storing it in the cooled cloche. Keeps well but you get the softening crust. I'm trying an old stainless steel bread box; the kind with the small holes for air in the sides. Doesn't seem much different than the cloche method so far. My best solution is to not have any left to store, but eating a loaf a day is a bit much when I'm on my own.

Will try to remember to ask the owners of the artisan bakery where my daughter works how they store it, if they do.

Hope to hear how others are doing it here.

Stephen

Ken Trease · 1 year ago

Stephen,
I have had the best luck with always slicing the bread straight across and storing the bread with the cut side down on a smooth hard surface like a cutting board or the bare counter. Keeps well for 2-3 days with no additional wrapping or covering. I have only used this technique with hard crusty artisan type breads.

Stephen · 1 year ago

Ken,

Thanks for the reply. I've got half a loaf baked fresh for dinner tonight that I just set cut side down on the cutting board in the dining room. Tonight it will test two things; does the bread keep well this way and do I have any guest mice in the house for the winter? :o)

Eva · 1 year ago

Hi, I put my bread into two (2) zip-lock bags ( each bag should have most of the air pressed out and be properly closed. The bread freezes well this way and it also keeps very well and for a long time in the refrigerator.
I usually bake a large round loaf of "the almost no knead rye bread" and either freeze half of it or I keep the whole loaf in the refrigerator. The last loaf lasted for three (3) weeks and still tasted very good.
I am still trying to figure out how long and at what temperature to bake the bread.No matter how long I bake the bread, it never goes past 200 F for the internal temp. and the center stays moist. Most of the time the crust turns out way too dark ( just about burned) and the crust is also rock hard. The last time I wrapped the hot loaf into a clean towel and put it back into the oven to soften the crust. Storage in the plastic bags will also soften the crust some. But, again, my crust can stand some softening since I do like to keep my teeth for a while longer :).
Keeping the bread on the kitchen counter is not an option for me since we live in Louisiana and the bread would mildew very quickly.
Eva

Mike Belgiorno · 1 year ago

In reading the posts on Almost No Knead Breads, I noted with interest Carolyn’s post of 04/13/08. I own a Lodge pre-seasoned 5 qt. cast iron Dutch oven and I have also had a continuing problem with burning the bottom of my ANK Breads. And a quick search of the Internet shows that Carolyn and I are not the only ones with this problem. I confirmed my oven’s temperature settings with an oven thermometer, so I eliminated that as a source of the problem. When I lowered the baking temperature enough to prevent the bottom crust from burning, the oven spring and, in particular, the quality of the crust was significantly compromised. Since the bottom crust is the only part of the bread in actual contact with the surface of the Dutch oven, it occurred to me that the answer might lie in elevating and/or insulating the dough in some manner. After some thought and experimentation, I found what I believe to be a workable solution to the problem. I merely lie the bottom of my Dutch oven with the round ceramic pie weights, the kind sold in cooking stores (I bought mine at Bed Bath & Beyond) to keep unfilled pie crusts in place while baking. The ceramic pie weights act as an insulator between the bottom of the Dutch oven and the dough, while providing much the same heat transference as a cloche or ceramic baking stone. I now use the temperatures specified for pre-heating and baking my Almost No Knead Bread and end up with a bottom crust that is perfectly browned. I encourage everyone who has dealt with this frustrating problem to give this a try and let me know how you make out. Love this site. Keep on baking and posting!

Eva · 1 year ago

Hi Mike,
The ceramic pie weights sound like a good idea. Question.... do you pre-heat the pie weights in the pot or do you put the pie weights into the pre-heated pot just before you put the breaddough into the pot?
Thanks, Eva

Mike Belgiorno · 1 year ago

Eva,
I put the pie weights in the pot prior to pre-heating and let pot and weights heat together to 500 degrees, before adding the bread on parchment for baking. Hope this helps.
Mike

Eva · 1 year ago

Thank you Mike. I will try this the next time I bake bread.
Eva

Alessandra · 1 year ago

I made the recipe Almost no knead bread. Here in Brazil we do not have the required "parchment paper" that you use to bake the bread, we have a role like this - "butter paper". Why even greasing the paper with oil the bread stick on it? What should I do? Could put directly into the pan?
thanks.

Stephen · 1 year ago

Alessandra,

I do not use parchement paper at all. I put my dough in the preheated cloche or dutch oven. I place a large tin cookie sheet on the oven rack beneath the rack the cloche or dutch oven is on and my dough does not usually burn. At first it did, but once I realized my oven ran hot and I adjusted it down 25º my crust came out much better. I am also careful not to over heat the cloche or dutch oven before baking.

Bruce · 1 year ago

Malcolm:

I've been reviewing your 02.29.08 post as a peculiarly useful guide.

I have a question about fermenting before refrigerating the dough. The Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes book recommends bulk fermentation at room temperature until the dough actually peaks and starts to fall. I'm not sure this makes sense if it is followed by a week to two week of retarding in the fridge. In addition, so much yeast is used in the book's recipes that I wonder if the dough is near exhaustion even before it is refrigerated. Perhaps that's why they call for such a brief proofing before baking (45 minutes or so).

The Veganfeastkitchen website recipe referred to by me in a previous post calls for much much less yeast but includes a two to five hour room temperature ferment.

Do you immediately retard the dough after mixing, apart from any portion you intend to immediately use? Or do you allow for some initial room temperature bulk fermentation?

Thanks! Best, Bruce

Jacob V. · 1 year ago

Funny about the beer in the bread. I found some malted barley flour a couple of weeks ago and really liked the flavor a couple of table spoons of it added to my breads. A couple of weeks later I had a Belgium beer which I didn't particularly liked, Heylisium Bruin (ordinarily I'm a big fan of the Belgium beers but this one was a bit to much), so I ended up substituting all water with this beer, a very dark, heavy beer. I used my usual flour mixture which includes 3 parts white and one part thats made up out of rye, wholewheat, flaxmeal, oatflour and wheatgerm the resulting bread was one of the tastiest breads I've made. I will certainly try to reproduce these results although it's gets to be a quite expensive bread with a $12,- /btl beer in it (750ml).

Eileen McKown · 1 year ago

I am so anxious to try the almost no knead bread but wonder if there is something other than beer I can use. I never have beer in the house. Could I just use water? Thank you. All the recipes and comments are great!

Jacob V. · 1 year ago

As far as I'm concerned you could use any liquid as long as it doesn't kill the yeast, so nothing to salty and definately no Scotch, haha... I often use milk, raw milk, if you can get your hands on some works great! i like to use it in an all white flour bread, delicious. When using real, raw milk (meaning;straight from the cow, kinda...) your basicly adding milk and cream to your bread.
I've tried wine (in my line of work I get a lot of wine samples, more than I can/want to drink), it works but I can't recommend it. Quite an odd flavor an when using red wine you end up with a Grey/Purpelisch bread, doesn't look very appetizing.
Goat's milk is great, I mix oats into it... my wife sais it's an aquired taste but boy do I like it.
anyway, I guess you're question was concerning the 'Almost No Knead' recipe... as Eric already suggested the beer and vinegar are to mimic the flavor of a sourdough bread without actually being a sourdough bread. So yes you can use just water but please try it with some beer also and taste the differnce.

Jacob V.

Harvey · 1 year ago

Hi,
I had just baked the C.I. bread before I found your site. I love the method and your site as well. I just tried the sandwich loaf, but just as I was going to put it into a loaf pan, my wife said she preferred the rustic loaf. So I used the skillet for the second rise and baked it in a 6.5 qt oval LeCreuset oven. After preheating the dutch oven in the 500 degree oven I dropped in the dough, lowered the temp to 425 and baked covered for the usual 30 minutes, and presto, it was done. It didn't have to go for the additional 15 minutes uncovered. Internal temp was 204. It came out with a thin but nice, crisp crust and a tight, sandwich style crumb.
A question, My enameled dutch ovens claim they should not be heated 'empty'. They are also getting terribly discolored from this use. Can I use a black 'Lodge' type cast iron dutch oven and get similar results? Will a steel dutch oven work or is it not heavy enough?
Has anyone come up with a 'no knead' challah bread yet?

Harvey · 1 year ago

Oh,,, by the way,,, a quarter cup of malted milk powder gave the bread a great taste. I used it instead of the Honey. It's a trick I learned making pancakes and waffles without adding sugar to the mix.

Stephen · 1 year ago

Harvey,

Before I got my le Cloche I used a cast iron dutch oven and it worked fine. I've also found that 30 minutes in the le Cloche is almost all the time it takes for the bread to reach 200º. Sometimes I uncover it for maybe 5 minutes, no more.

Richard Walker · 1 year ago

I still use my cast iron dutch oven. No problem preheating and the end result is terrific. My guess on the steel is that it will want to be a fairly heavy gauge ... but that is just a guess. If anyone actually uses a heavy gauge stainless container they will hopefully give you a better answer.

Nance M · 1 year ago

Eric, I am having so much fun with this method but also have some questions. I am only letting my dough go for around 12 hours prior to forming and putting in the bread pan (using just the sandwich bread recipe for now). After placing in the pan (9"X5" bread pan) after 2 hours I am barely up to the top of the pan. A couple loaves have not achieved that. Question...first proof for less time or second proof longer? Also not achieving much oven spring at all. Using fresh yeast, fresh Bob's Red Mill flours (they are a local company) and room temperature bottled water.

I usually don't have beer in the house so wonder if anybody has tried using fruit juice in this recipe. I make our own unsweetened apple and pear juice and even without seeing your answer I just KNOW I am going to try that! LOL!
BTW, I love the oven stone and the small Danish whisk is the perfect size for small hands. Next is the pizza peel....maybe today! What a wonderful addiction this is! LOL! The new way of doing the videos is brilliant! Thanks for all you do!
Nance

Breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Nance,

I've only worked with sourdough starter and instant yeast for bread baking, so I don't know if what you're experiencing with fresh yeast is normal or not. Beer has yeast in it too so may add to the rise a bit.

Sounds like you're doing fine anyway and thanks for the nice feedback. You'll love the Super Peel.

Nance M · 1 year ago

Oops! Sorry, Eric....by 'fresh yeast' I meant I threw away the bag of instant yeast that said 2003 on it and bought some that said 2010! LOL! Granted the other bag had been in the freezer in an airtight jar but after at least five years there I spread it on the compost pile. I have never used actual 'fresh' yeast either although I have seen it in the store.

Practice makes perfect I am sure and I spent a couple hours today watching bread making videos...that helped answer some questions too. It is so helpful to be able to SEE what the dough is supposed to look and act like.

I know I will enjoy the Super Peel...it is the perfect match to that wonderful oven stone.
Thanks, Nance

Leslie · 1 year ago

How do I "make" whole wheat bread flour?
I have a box of Vital Wheat Gluten, and I used it following the instructions on the box (1 1/2 tsp. per cup) to make a whole wheat version of CI's very easy (the Kitchenaid does all the work) Rustic Dinner Rolls, which calls for bread flour. The weren't the worst-case-scenario doorstops that I expected, but they weren't great, either. Rising took FOREVER. Is there some rule of thumb about increasing the yeast or times that I should use? And, was it enough vital wheat gluten? I've seen formulas that use more per cup.

Thanks for any info!!

Breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Leslie. You got me. Hopefully someone else will see this and know the answer.

Dave the Novice · 1 year ago

Leslie,

Based on my experience developing a 100% whole wheat recipe that works in my bread machine, I would guess that you need more honey. I had to go to 3 tablespoons of honey for four cups of WW to get mine to work. I think I'd try 2 tablespoons for this recipe. I use about the same proportion of vital wheat gluten as you did. I scoop out a heaping tsp per cup of flour, and that is probably about 1 1/2 tsp.

My bread machine allows a little longer time for rising in the WW cycle, so it's not surprising your rolls took longer to rise.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your ultimate success. I'd like to serve these myself at Thanksgiving.

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

Hi, Leslie
Could you post the recipe, or a link to it, along with any adjustments made by you, so I can see what you did, exactly. Also, what kind of whole wheat flour did you use? And did you measure or weigh your ingredients?

Leslie · 1 year ago

Hi, Everyone, and Thanks for all your input:
Here's Rustic Dinner Rolls from November 2008. I think it should be accessible to all, even without subscribing: http://www.cooksillustrated.com/recipes/detail.... .
I'm a realtive bread novice, so I prefer recipes that don't require hand kneading and basically don't require much judgment on my part, so this recipe and all the No-Knead variations are perfect for me.
Basically, the first time I tried to make it Whole Wheat, I used all (3 1/4 c.) whole wheat flour and 1/4 c. + 3/4 tsp. Vital wheat Gluten. No other adjustments. I didn't weigh the flour. The dough was so stiff and the mixer shook so violently during kneading, it wrestled the mixer bowl right off the prongs of the Kitchenaid. The rolls weren't awful, but they weren't great. For me, they came out tougher and sweeter than I would have liked, but the texture was the more pressing problem.

For the second try I went from all Whole Wheat to 2 c. WW flour, 1 1/4 c. Bread Flour and 3 tsp. Vital Wheat Gluten. The dough behaved more normally, and the rising times were more like the orignal recipe. They came out much, much better, but I still wish I could make them 100% Whole Wheat.

Taste-wise, the way they came out made me want them with jam for breakfast and not to eat with dinner. Is there any rule of thumb so I can adjust the salt without ruining it? Or, are there any thoughts on a way I can use beer & vinegar like in the ANK recipe? I'm not a full-blown sourdough lover, so the beer & vineger really worked for me.

Thanks, Everyone!

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

Hi, Leslie

Just a few general comments:

First of all, I really urge you to invest in a scale. Breadtopia sells them at very reasonable prices. Weighing ingredients will help immensely in improving the consistency of your outcomes.

I think your first venture was not a success for 2 basic reasons: 1. You didn't use enough water, 2. you used too much gluten. My thoughts:
1. Most of the recipes I've tried out don't used enough water. The basic no-knead recipe is an exception - the amount of hydration (weight of water/weight of flour) is about 78%, which is quite high for a loaf of bread. (Many baguette recipes call for hydration of about 65%.). It's truly amazing how much water bread dough can absorb, if especially if you're using a stand mixer to knead it. Try increasing the water by 5% or even 10% and see how you like it. One trick to doing this is to make the dough according to the recipe, and then, after the dough has formed and been kneaded using the dough hook, to gradually add the addition water in parts, continuing to knead with the dough hook until the water is absorbed at each addition. I used this technique to make a ciabatta that was 100% hydrated - equal parts flour and water by weight. My current recipe for ciabatta calls for 90% hydration.

2. Too much vital gluten: By example, the Hodgson Mill Rye Bread recipe calls for 3 c. bread flour, 3 1/2 c. Rye flour, and 8 tsp. vital gluten, or about 3 c. flour to 4 tsp. gluten. Your mix used 3 1/2 c. flour and 1/4 c. + 3/4 tsp. = 12 3/4 tsp. - about 3 times the amount used in the Rye bread recipe. Bread flour already contains a higher amount of gluten, but Rye flour is really lacking in it, so the mix would contain about 1/2 the gluten of white flour. Whole wheat contains quite a bit of gluten, so I'd suggest that with 3 1/2 c. of whole wheat flour, you use no more than 3-4 tsp. gluten. Using a mix of whole wheat and bread flour, you'd use a lot less - maybe 1 or 2 tsp. Too much gluten also makes bread extremely chewy. If I were using more gluten, I'd be inclined to add some milk and/or more oil to tenderize it. (If milk, cook on lower oven temperature, and milk sugars promote caramelization, i.e., possible scorching.)

Finally, you might have a look at Peter Rinehart's newest book on whole grain baking - lots of recipes using nothing but whole wheat flour.

Eileen McKown · 1 year ago

I tried the Rye Bread - it looked fine when I took it out of the oven but later in the day cutting into it - it was very moist and really not edible. Where did I go wrong in this venture?

Breadtopia · 1 year ago

Hi Eileen.

It can be hard to judge whether or not the bread is actually done by looking at it. Most of the time, you're going to need an instant read thermometer to check the internal temperature. If it reads about 200 F degrees, you should be ok.

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

Hi Eileen, Eric

I second the use of instant read thermometers (which still take a couple seconds to read temperature, but compared to standard thermometers are virtually instant) - thought I don't know what temperature rye bread should be cooked to. I recently baked some rye (1/2 rye, 1/2 bread flower, with some vital wheat gluten added) to about 200 F., and it was very dry. What should be optimum temperature for rye bread be? And does that translate over into any whole grain bread?

Nance M · 1 year ago

Eric,

The Super Peel arrived today and we are excitedly looking forward to trying it out on pizza tomorrow night. Thank you so much!

Made 7 loaves of different no-knead breads for the family to try with our Thanksgiving soup celebration on Saturday. Made the white and the whole wheat, the steel cut oat, the cranberry/pecan, and the rye all from recipes on the site. Then branched off and using the sandwich bread recipe, I added about 3/8 of a tsp of Italian seasonings and 1 1/2 Tbs of chopped fresh rosemary to a loaf that tasted a LOT like Macaroni Grill's Rosemary bread that they serve. When it was done I sprinkled a bit of Kosher salt on top....mmmmm! For the last one used the steel cut oat recipe only instead of the oats I added 1/2 a cup of Bob's Red Mill 5 grain cereal and a combination of herbs for a whole grain herb bread. Used parsley. thyme, oregano, sage and marjoram. Also very yummm.

Now have a couple grand children who want to come to the farm and learn how to make this. Smile. See what you started? A whole family hobby! LOL!

Thanks again...
Nance

Nathan Smith · 1 year ago

Hello,

I am fairly new to breadbaking. I have made about 5 loaves of whole wheat bread straight from the Tassajara Bread Book, which came out progressively as a 3 inch high brick and finally a 5 inch, almost edible brick... Quite dissapointing. I finally got a decent whole wheat, but I was perplexed why I couldn't get the high rise and spacious crumb in pictures. Now I know more about whole wheat versus white, but moving on.... I found the no knead method. First time was a cinch, though I got rid of the towel idea pretty quick. The bread looked great and tasted wildly different from anything else I had made.
Then I found this website.... How amazing! I am no making my first sourdough starter, which is almost done, and I made my second loaf of Almost no Knead with sam adams winter lager, malt vinegar, half whole wheat, and some agave nectar. My slashes are a bit off, but I could not be happier. I finally feel good about my bread, including its taste. I also like being able to work with the dough a bit, and I am more confident about trying whole wheat recipes again now too. Thank you breadtopia and all the great posts I have read on this site, it has been a big help!

hipkip · 1 year ago

I just completed my first almost no knead loaf today...perfect to go with soup tonight on a cold rainy day in the PNW. I do not have a La Cloche, so I put mine on a pizza stone with parchment uncovered for 40 min. The top crust came out great but the bottom was a little softer than I wanted...next time I will go with out the parchment. overall a great loaf....thanks Eric!

Renee · 1 year ago

Hello. I love your website and your helpful videos! Feels very friendly here!

I made this bread this past weekend and I wanted to let you know how good it is and how impressed I am with it! The crust was perfect and the crumb was perfect. I made the whole wheat version. Thanks so much for the website!

virginia · 1 year ago

i just maid the best almost no need bread ever...my family is loving it...thanks bruce....cant wait till i get my order ....never ever am i going to buy bread again...virginia

Ed · 1 year ago

Are you still planning on putting the sandwich version on Youtube?

Breadtopia · 1 year ago

That's funny, I thought it was already on Youtube. Thanks for asking. I'll do that but it's going to take a while as I'm way behind on a bunch of things.

Gia · 1 year ago

Okay, everyone here seems to be accomplished breadmakers. I AM NOT, but looking to be. This ia a great site! I have forwarded it on to family who also love it and have renewed the love of breadmaking. Just wanted to say that. Here is my question. I started with the sourdough bread NK (love love it) Still messing around with the starter to improve "sour". Can I use the starter in place of yeast for sandwich bread? Do I omit the beer and such or still use it for flavor. Basically just trying not to use instant yeast. Use what I have instead. Or use beer and water for liquid and omit vinegar?

JEffrey · 1 year ago

Hi, Gia

In my experience, you can use sourdough starter for anything you can use dried or fresh yeast in - though I haven't tried using sourdough in very sweet breads yet, such as cinnamon buns. Simply from a handling point-of-view, I actually prefer sourdough starter over yeast - sourdough activity seems slower, so there's a bigger time window during which SD bread is at its peak. Also, I seem to get bigger holes in my bread, which I like.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "improve" the sour taste. Do you want your bread more sour or less sour? Or do you want a different kind of taste? If you want a different taste, you might want to purchase some sourdough starters on the internet. I currently have a French starter and an Alaskan starter, both of which I really like, and a San Francisco starter, which I reserve for more sour breads. I tried making some of my own starter, but didn't like the taste. And I had a (purchased) Russian starter I didn't care for.

It's my understanding that the beer, etc. are added in order to replicate the taste of sourdough while using yeast. If you're using sourdough starter, you wouldn't need to replicate that taste, as it would already be present, so the beer, etc. would no longer be necessary. But then, if you like the combination of beer and sourdough taste, continue to use it, though I don't know how it would affect the rising power of the starter.

For sourdoughs without beer, etc., the sour taste comes from two kinds of bacteria in the starter, one which produces lactic acid and one which produces acetic acid. The less-sour lacto-bacillus ("LB") is more active in warmer, wetter environments, while the more-sour aceto-bacillus ("AB") is more active in drier, colder environments. The Breadtopia recipe is very wet, and the process occurs at room temperature, and is more favorable to the LB.

One way to encourage the AB is to make a drier starter to use - combine 1/4 Cup starter with enough flour from the recipe to form a slightly sticky ball of dough, let it rise for a few hours to get it going (refrigerating it if you run out of time), then use it with the rest of the recipe ingredients to make the bread.

Another way is to make the entire recipe, let it proof for about 10-12 hours, form the loaf by folding it, then place it back into a greased bowl, cover it and refrigerate it until the next day (morning or night). Remove it from the refrigerator about 1 hour before baking. Remove it from the bowl carefully and let it rest for 15-20 minutes before baking.
(The timing on this is a guestimate on my part, and it might take some experimentation to find the optimum proof/refrigeration times.)

For a less sour taste, the trick is to coax the bread into rising more quickly, as by placing it in a proofing box (I use my oven with the light turned on). The problem here is that quicker rising times means less development of the gluten, which give the bread its structure, and most certainly requires some, if not a lot, of kneading. So, if the NK sourdough recipe is too sour, then you'd probably have to resort to some kneading if you want to take steps to reduce the sourness.

Gia · 1 year ago

Wow, thanks for all the info. I did brew up my own sd starter and I am trying for a more sour taste. I will try buying one to see the difference. I don't think mine is very sour. Meantime I would like to use the starter to make other breads in place of the yeast. I have not played around with any other bread recipes besides the nk sd one.

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

Hi again, Gia

For reference, I suggest looking at/buying Classic Sourdoughs by Dr. Ed Wood. The section on the care and feeding of sourdough starters is certainly worth a gander, especially how to resurrect a long-dormant culture. (I once let a culture sit in my refrigerator for over a year, and brought it back to life easily.)

One drawback to the book is that it doesn't list ingredients by weight, which I prefer over volume measurement. (Dr. Wood does list some figures in one of the appendices which gives weights for various ingredients, just not in the recipes themselves.) Another is that it lists recipes using a "liquid" (wetter) starter or a "sponge" (drier) starter, which is kind of confusing.

Breadtopia sells a sourdough culture, I believe.

You can also buy a variety of different cultures from around the world at Dr. Wood's website:
http://www.sourdo.com/culture.htm

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

A few more comments about more sour sourdough:

1. If you make a drier starter by combining the 1/4 C. starter with enough flour to make a sticky ball, then let it sit for several hours, when it comes time to add the rest of the ingredients, add all the water first, and dissolve the ball in the water as best you can, then add the rest of the flour, etc.

2. If you retard the dough in the refrigerator, you may need to fold it as per the video after removing it when preparing to bake.

Rich Witt · 1 year ago

Eric
I made my first loaf of A-N-K all white flour bread, precisely following your instructions in the video. I used bottled spring water & Stella Artois beer. The result was a nice looking loaf, but the bread had a much tighter crumb, not like the loaf in your video. The initial rise was 14 hours, and the 2nd rise was 2 hours, with a 30 min. dutch oven pre-heat at 500 deg.

The bread seemed a bit too dense. Do you have any suggestions on how to get a lager crumb and less density.

I live in the Chicago area, so there is no altitude problem. The room temp was probably 69-70F. The rise was done in a S.S. bowl that the dough was mixed in. The mixing was done with a Kitchen Aid hand mixer with dough hooks, and covered with GladWrap for the rise. I'm pretty sure the oven temps were fairly precise, since my stove is an electric Kitchen Aid with an electronically controlled oven that signals when the selected oven temps are reached. I used Reynolds parchement paper which got rather brown from the heat, and my dutch oven is the all cast iron enameled Le Cruiset (sp?)

I think the bread would have been perfect if it had a bit less density and larger crumb like that of the one shown in the video.

I took pictures of it that I could send if I could attach to this.

Rich

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

Hi, Rich

Did you measure the ingredients or weigh them? In my experience, the denser crumb is due to insufficient water, which can easily arise when you measure flour and don't weigh it - some bread books say that 1 Cup of flour weighs 4+ ounces or so, while others say it weighs about 6+ ounces. Another possibility is insufficiently active yeast - too old, for example, maybe exposed to too high heat somewhere along the line.

Rich Witt · 1 year ago

Jeffrey

All ingredients were weighed just as it was done in the video. I don't have an elecronic scale [on order] but I used a mechanical kitchen scale with the containers for the flour and the liquids zeroed out.

The yeast was received from breadtopia a week ago.

Maybe the oven temp is off, but even though stove [Kitchen Aid] is about 10 years old, it is electronically controlled and seems to work properly. I'll check it with an oven thermometer if I can find it.

The heat could be too high in the dutch oven. I have La Cloche coming this week.

I did a rye loaf and the bottom crust was black - not burn't, but black, and the bread was dense, but I expected it to be, since rye bread is typically denser than white or whole wheat.

I think the next time I will see if your suggestion about the amount of water in the mix works. I'll increase the water about 10%. I think I'll reduce the temp about 25 F. and just let it bake a few min. longer as necessary.

Thanks for your response.

Karil · 1 year ago

Hi Jeffrey

Just a note about oven temperatures. I don't know if you are using a convection oven, however, remember to reduce the oven temperature if you are. I find convection is great for baked goods (except for pies and filled pastries), however, you have to reduce the temperature by about 15-20° F.

Increased water will certainly go a long way to solve the density/crumb problem. Also, don't overproof. My first loaves were a bit overproofed, without my realizing it. Then, once I prepared a batch of two loaves and needed to let the second one proof longer while the first one baked. I put the first one into the oven a bit earlier than I usually would have done, and wow, what a difference in the oven spring and in the texture from my earliers loaves (which had still been really good). And, the second loaf came out like the earlier ones. So, although the fermentation window is very flexible, proofing requires more judgement and finesse—The burden of proofing.

All the best,
Karil

Karil · 1 year ago

Sorry, Jeffrey, I meant my comment to be addressed to Rich Witt.
Karil

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

"burden of proofing" - I like that. As a recovering lawyer (I'm a member of AA - Attorney's Anonymous), I always like good lawyer-based humor.

Rich Witt · 1 year ago

Karil & Jeffrey

While I have a built-in convection oven, I use the conventional one to bake the bread. This is mainly because I don't know what temp setting to use.

I baked a loaf - a long one instead of round, because I received my oblong La Cloche. I did everything else the same, but used about 1 oz. more water than called for in the Cook's Illustrated A-N-K recipe. However, after pre-heating at 500 F., I reduced the baking temp to 425 F., after 30 min, I removed the top of the La Cloche and as the bread temp was already 200F., I only baked it un-covered for 5 more min.

On removing the loaf to the rack, I decided that it looked beautiful and couldn't wait to cut into it. I ignored the idea and left to do some shopping.

On return I had lunch, and cut a couple of slices of the bread. The bread was less dense, with a larger crumb. The crust was crisp-chewy and the inside was kind of chewy. I thought it tasted very good.

I later made a dough with with a bit more water & beer than before; Unfortunately, I didn't measure how much more, I went by the dough consistancy. It is proofing right now so I will let you know how it turns out.

Rich

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

Just an aside, since we're talking water:

Every recipe I've tried from _The Bread Baker's Apprentice_ has called for far too little water. Some of the recipe's in _Artisan Bread_ by Maggie Glezer likewise don't do what the descriptions say they should unless you add more water. For both boths, that means increasing it by as much as from about 5 to 15%.

Water really is the key to large crumb. Unfortunately, more water means slacker dough, so doughs wetter than the NK recipe are difficult to make successfully without some form of kneading, to highly develop the gluten structure.

I was talking to one of the bakers from Wheatfields bakery in Lawrence, Kansas, and he said that his country-french-type loaves were about 78% water (the same as the NK basic recipe), that he kneaded his dough probably for a total of 20-25 minutes by hand (for personal loaves), with several resting intervals of 15 minutes or so, that he didn't not use any additional flour once the dough was mixed, but relied on a granite kneading surface and a dough-knife, and finally once the loaves were shaped, allowed them to rise overnight in a refrigerator. Very nice results, with a remarkably sour taste (from the long rise in the refrigerator).

Jeffrey · 1 year ago

One more point about sourdough:

As I mentioned before, the sour taste of sourdough comes from bacterial action. The rising effect comes from natural yeasts in the sourdough. An important fact about these two different organisms is that the bacteria take longer to develop the sour taste than the yeast does to rise the dough. In order to get the sourest taste, yeast growth has to be retarded by refrigerating the dough, in order to give the bacteria time to develop the sour taste. Refrigeration also serves a dual purpose by allowing the more-sour aceto-bacteria a better environment for development.

Karil · 1 year ago

Hi Rich

It sounds like your following the right path—also trusting in your sense of dough consistency rather simply the measurements—courageous you!

I don't have a cloche. I've never seen one available here in the Provence, France. Perhaps I'd find one in Paris, but I doubt it. For the past year and a half or so I've been using a dome-shaped terracotta flower pot placed onto a terracotta underpot, the diameter of which is a couple of centimeters larger than the pot. I plugged up the hole with a thick piece of aluminum foil. However, I have some specially formulated stoneware clay for making oven-proof ceramics. (Indeed, it is even intended for top of the stove ceramic vessels, such as fondue pots, etc.) I intend to make a couple of long-shaped cloches when the better weather returns. I'll ask a ceramicist friend to fire them for me.

When I use the convection oven for bread, I preheat it to the recommended temperature together with the cloche setup (and pizza stone, if using one), then before opening the oven door to put in the bread, I reduce the temperature by about 20°F. (I only preheat to the higher temperature to accomodate for the heat loss that occurs when the oven is opened to put the bread in.) Generally, one reduces the oven temperature by about 20°F when using the convection oven.

Also, I bake the bread covered in the cloche for the entire baking time. I find that my bread browns more evenly if I bake it in the covered cloche for the entire time. If it doesn't register the proper temperature at the end of this time, I might keep it in the oven a bit longer without the cloche cover, but this is usually not necessary.

There are so many factors that one can experiment with.

Bonne Noël / Joyous, Festive Holiday Baking to you and Jeffrey, and of course to Eric and to all of you Breadtopia participants! May the coming year bountifully bless you all with perfect loaves!

Karil

Rich Witt · 1 year ago

Karil

Merry Christmas!

As a substitute for the flower pot, IKEA [I know they have the IKEA stores in France] has a 2.7 L. clay baking pot with a cover. It looks like it can be used with the cover on the bottom and the pot portion on the top. I don't know if it is of satisfactory size for baking a bread. I will take a look at it when I go to IKEA after the holidays. The product name is STIL. You can probably check it out on-line: www.IKEA.com.

I am using the oblong La Cloche, and it does a beautiful job. I might consider ordering the round one too, but I am, storage space challenged.

Rich

Karil · 1 year ago

Thanks for the IKEA "Stil" tip. We just made plans to go to IKEA with friends next week, so I'll look into it. We call this a "Römertopf" in Swiss and in German cooking—it is claypot cooking in an unglazed terracotta pot. (One soaks it in water and places a chicken, onions, etc. into it and bakes it in the oven—a bit like claypot cooking in Africa.) It is certainly an excellent and cheaper alternative to the clôche, and an improvement over my flowerpot, which is a bit clumsy, because it has no handles on it.

I prefer oblong loaves, because the cut surface is smaller (less exposure and drying out) and it is easier to slice. In Europe, the tradition is that the large round loaves are first cut in half and then the half is quartered and sliced with one of the sliced surfaces facing down on the cutting board.) The remaining quarter and the half loaf are then stored. This results in a lot of exposed surface. Then again, our loaves are not quite so large, and they disappear too quickly to dry out or go stale.

Karil

Bob Packer · 1 year ago

Karil,
If your flower pot has a drainage hole in the bottom, you can get an "eye" (augenschraube) bolt, two washers (dischtungringe ?) and a nut (mutter). Put one washer up against the "eye", push the bolt through the hole, put the other washer on the bolt, then the nut. Makes a little handle for the pot. You can then use a pair of pliers to lift the pot.

Bob

Karil · 1 year ago

Thank you Bob, that is an excellent solution! I have some enormous washers that would fit over the hole and the rest of the hardware on hand. I will try that out.

Karil

Bob Packer · 1 year ago

"Stolen" idea, I assure you!

Speaking of Stolen, mine turned out quite well this year. Bake 5. Also did Lebkuchen and Pfeffernuesse for the first time. Lebkuchen were just like I jused to get in Germany.

Rich Witt · 1 year ago

Bob

In your post above you refer to Stolen (Stollen?) If you are referring to the pastry-like concoction? Can you provide a recipe. I really love stollen, but is difficult to find a bakery that has a good one, in the area in which I live.

Thanks,

Rich

Jacob V · 1 year ago

Hello Bob Packer,
Could you please, PLEASE send me your recipes for Lebkuchen and Pfeffernuesse?!?!? I've been searching for a good Lebkuchen recipe for years...
My email: drtisbeter@msn.com
Thank you, thank you!

Bob Packer · 1 year ago

Rich and Jacob,

Here is the link to Stefan Block's website. If you look in the index at the left, click on recipes. You can then do some searching.

Jacob, these are the recipes I used. The Lebkuchen is outstanding.

Rich, he has a recipe for Stollen. It is not the one I use, but it looks very good. I will dig out the one I use for you.

If you all look at Stefan's site, you will also find great recipes for schnitzel, which for the uninformed (lol) are breaded cutlets (usually veal, but pork is good substitute). The saurbraten recipe look authentic, also. The Black Forest Cherry cake is a just a bit different that what I am used to.

If you have trouble finding the recipes on the site directly, let me know as I have them bookmarked here.

Bob

Rich Witt · 1 year ago

Bob

The link for Stefan Block's website you mentioned in your message is not shown.

Will you please post that when you get the chance? Thanks.

Rich

Rich Witt · 1 year ago

Breadtopia

Eric

While waiting for the oven to pre-heat, to bake my ANK whole wheat loaf, a couple of questions came to mind:

In the video, you use 1/3 whole wheat flour with 2/3 white flour. I used Ceresota whole wheat flour, but I also bought King Arthur "white whole wheat" flour. In using the KAF to make whole wheat bread, do you recommend the 1/3 - 2/3 flour ratio, or since the KAF is "white whole wheat" would you use it straight and use no whit flour

BTW the La Cloche does a perfect job. I brought a loaf for Christmas dinner and there was an appetizer that was to be served on french bread. After trying my ANK bread, no one ate any of the purchased french bread.
I asked for a critique and everyone said they liked the crunchy/chewy crust and the chewy inside. The next question that several asked was "when are you going to bake a loaf for me?"

Rich

Jeffrey · 12 months ago

White whole wheat is still whole wheat - it's just milled from a different kind of wheat. The KAF wesite says: "Milled from white whole wheat, rather than red, unbleached King Arthur White Whole Wheat Flour has all the fiber and nutrition of traditional whole wheat, with milder flavor and lighter color." It ought to act the same as red whole wheat, so issues of gluten and bran content would be the same.

Jillian from North Dakota · 12 months ago

I've just made my first ANK sandwich loaves. What great flavor these breads have! Loaf 1 was 2/3 stone ground whole wheat and 1/3 all purpose flour (by weight), no sugar. The ww flour was a little old and dry and I ended up with the dough too moist, but went with it anyway--couldn't knead it it was so wet! Decided to use the cast iron Dutch oven instead of the loaf pan. Second rise was in a no-stick aluminum foil shape I made that was the same size as my 10 inch/7qt. Dutch oven. The loaf didn't raise too much, even for ww, but it was a wonderful surprise--a little dense but it would have been a real brick any other way! This dough really is quite tolerant of variations!

Some have mentioned problems with the crust burning with the cast iron dutch oven. I have a small galley kitchen and use a large 'Nesco' type roaster for baking. The heating element is around the walls, not just on the floor. Makes for great even baking (or cooking). The crusts on my loaves were even throughout, with no symptoms of overbaking.

Loaf 2 was 100% spelt (whole wheat style, not white), no sugar (a friend is sensitive to 'modern' wheats and can only tolerate the 'ancient' types). The dough was very dry (again, older flour in a dry climate) and I had to add about 1 ounce of water. I again used the no-stick alum. foil form (this time loaf pan size) for the second rise. I preheated the loaf pan with the oven preheat. The loaf raised beautifully, and my friend just came over for soup and bread breakfast 'cuz she didn't want to wait 'til lunch to try it. It was too fun.

A tip I learned from a professional baker: for the first rise, transfer the dough to an oiled bowl, instead of keeping it in the bowl it was mixed in. It slides out much easier at the end of the rise.

Thanks for the site and for all the input, I'm looking forward to trying the recipes y'll have developed.

Jillian

Jeffrey · 12 months ago

Hi, Jillian

Two ways of kneading wet dough (more properly called "turning" the dough):

Invest in a dough knife and piece of granite you can use as a kneading surface, and use the dough knife dipped in water to scrap the dough off the granite and flopping/folding it over itself, letter-style. Or you can do the same on a lightly floured surface, dipping the dough knife into flour. You aren't actually "kneading" the dough, but stretching and folding it to achieve the same result.

Instead of turn the dough on some sort of surface, turn it in its container: after mixing the bread, leave it mixing bowl and let it rest for several minutes (anywhere from 3 to 30). To knead it, wet your fingers (to keep the dough from sticking), then grab the dough at the far side of the bowl, pull it straight up then towards you, then let it flop over the top of the dough. Rotate the bowl 1/4 turn and repeat 3 more times. With so little yeast in the mix, you can repeat this operation a number of times before letting it go into an undisturbed first rise.

Jeffrey · 12 months ago

Just for clarity's sake, For turning in the bowl, each time you grab/pull/flop the wet dough, you rotate the bowl 1/4 turn.

Dave · 12 months ago

I love this bread, but could never get the spring rise that I thought I should. For my birthday my wife got me one of your scales, a whisk (awesome) and a new bread knife. I just made a loaf following the recipe exactly and the rise was spectacular. It really helps to be able to measure things by weight. It is so nerdy to be this excited about bread.

Thanks for the great site!

Breadtopia · 12 months ago

Hi Rich,

Just saw your post asking about white whole wheat flour. White whole wheat performs pretty much the same as regular whole wheat flour so I would use the same 1/3 - 2/3 ratio.

White has a slightly lower protein level than red whole wheat and lacks the bitter tannic acid that gives the red wheat its color, but can be substituted one for one in recipes calling for whole wheat.

At least that's my understanding.

Breadtopia · 12 months ago

Okay, now I just saw that Jeffrey already answered the question. You'd think I could follow my own site. Thanks Jeffrey.

Rich Witt · 12 months ago

Eric & Jeffrey

Thanks to both of you for your responses.

I am going to try the KAF white whole wheat flour soon.

Right now I am making a cinnamon-raisin version of the CI ANK bread.

Prior to the final 2 hr proofing I am going to lightly roll the folded dough out flat, sprinkle it with sugar/cinnamon and raisins, then roll it up, pinch the ends and rolled edge, then let it proof for the 2 hrs and bake it in the oblong La Cloche. I'm doing this for the grandkids, but I'll have to give it a taste test first.

Do you think it would be better to do it in a bread pan, like in Eric's ANK Sandwich loaf video?

I'll post here on how it turns out.

Rich

Breadtopia · 11 months ago

This sounds like a great idea and I can't wait to hear how it goes.

If the sugar/cinnamon mixture oozes out, you might run into a sticking problem with the cloche vs a bread pan. Might be worth a try though. ;)

Karil · 11 months ago

However, if using a parchment sling to transfer the loaf onto the Clôche, the parchment would protect the Clôche from whatever ooooozes out. Sounds good either way!

Karil

Breadtopia · 11 months ago

Good point, Karil.

Rich - if it works out, I hope you're up for sharing the details and maybe a couple pictures if you have a digital camera.

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

Anything with sugar in it (including milk-sugars found in milk) should probably be baked at a lower temperature than that suggested in the video/directions. While the high temperature does a great job in caramelizing the sugars released from the dough during fermentation, resulting in a nice rich brown color, sugar will probably turn black at the same oven-setting. Most of the sweet-bread recipes I've seen recommend temperatures around 350 F.

Rich Witt · 11 months ago

Eric, Karil, Jeffrey

Thanks for your comments.
Eric: I have forwarded 3 pictures to you to add to this commentary.
Karil: I did use parchment paper to transfer the dough to the cloche.
Jeffrey: lucky for me the sugar didn't turn black; I baked st 400F. It took about 45 min total time - 15min with the cloche cover removed, but tented with foil so the crust didn't get too dark.

As previously mentioned, I made the conventional CI ANK exactly as the recipe calls for up until the final 2 hr proofing. After folding the dough about 10 times, I flattened it out to a roughly rectangular shape, sprinkled it with cinnamon/sugar mix and added about 1/2 - 2/3 cup of raisins.

I then rolled it up like a jelly-roll and pinched the seam and the ends shut.
There was no seepage of the ingredients.

The crust is nice and crunchy/chewy and the inside is chewy, but has a pretty small/tight crumb. The flattening of the dough after the folding may have squeezed all of the air trapped in the dough.

However, the sourness of the beer & vinegar clash with the sweetness of the cinnamon and raisins. As you will see with the pictures, the distribution of the cinnamon & sugar is not quite what it should be either.

For the next go-round, I think I will go back to the basic NK recipe, and bake it in a loaf pan. I will use water only, though I was thinking about a little milk, maybe about 2 oz. I will probably use more liquid than the 10 oz, or increase in proportion with the other ingredients as suggested by Eric in his sandwich loaf ANK video.

If you have any comments about adding milk, I'd appreciate reading them.

Also, as a final step when baking the next loaf, I think I will brush the top of the crust with a little egg white wash and sprinkle a bit of turbinado sugar on it, at the last few minutes of bake time.

Rich

<img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/Rich.jpg" alt="Rich's Cinnamon Raisin" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="253">
</img><img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/Rich2.jpg" alt="Rich's Cinnamon Raisin" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="253">
</img><img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/Rich3.jpg" alt="Rich's Cinnamon Raisin" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="253"></img>

Amy K · 11 months ago

http://www.flickr.com/photos/akbakes/3167348696/

Tried your ANK sandwich bread and have attached a picture from Flickr. Still on cooling rack so haven't tasted it yet, but smells wonderful. It's certainly looks beautiful. I let it rise the stated 18 hrs and it's pan rise was only about 1 1/2 hrs with 50 min in oven. Can't wait to taste! Amy K, Johnson City, TN

<img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/AmyANK.jpg" alt="Amy's Almost No Knead Sandwich Loaf" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="338"></img>

Karil · 11 months ago

Hi Rich

I'm not too sure about the milk. Don't loose sight of the fact that the ANK recipe is an "artisinal" slow rise bread with only very little yeast or sugar and virtually no added fat. Milk is usually added to enriched doughs that have more yeast and whose character is not dependent upon the alchemy of the slow rise. Also, I am not sure whether milk, eggs, etc. might not develop unwelcome organism and an off taste while rising slowly.

If you want to continue with sweet additions such as raisins, why not substitute apple juice or apple cider for the beer and vinegar. (You can even soak the dried fruit in the juice.) Leave out any sugar or honey, so there will not be too much sweetness to interfere with the yeast activity. I've had wonderful dried fruit and nut artisinal bread included red wine in the the preparation, though I have not yet made any.

Also, Rich, don't forget to look into the existing No Knead Recipe Variations on the site that include the addition of raisins and other dried fruits, nuts, spices, parmesan, etc.

But, also, don't let all that daunt you. Enjoy your experiments as much as the feasting!

Greetings,
Karil

Rich Witt · 11 months ago

Hi Karil

Now you've got me thinking! Back in the 1970s I used to bake a couple loaves of cinnamon/raisin bread for my kids. I'm pretty sure I used a cinnamon/sugar mix with the raisins, and "jelly-rolled" the stuff into a loaf and baked it. This however was a very conventionally-prepared loaf, using regular powdered yeast - probably around 1 1/2 -2 teaspoons yeast placed in about 2/3 cup of warm water and left until it became active. I now think I am remembering using the milk to brush on the top of the crust and sprinkled with sugar just before baking time was complete.

The bread had a beautiful swirl of cinnamon and raisins through it that spiraled around about 1 1/2 circles. If you noticed in my picture, the swirl only makes about 1 circle. Every thing about the pictured loaf was fine, except the taste. The taste, while not terrible, just isn't right.

The apple cider sounds interesting. I was thinking rather than ANK bread, I might try just NK. With that recipe you don't do all the folds before proofing.
I could flatten the dough just after the rest time and roll the ingredients in and place it in the bread pan for its final proofing before going in the oven.

I'll use straight cinnamon without the sugar mixed in it, and sugar the top of the crust just before the baking is complete.

I saw a cinnamon/raisin recipe with the NK artisan type breads, and the cinnamon and raisins were mixed with the dough rather than the swirl that I'm looking for.

Thanks for your input.

Rich

Amy K · 11 months ago

My ANK sandwich loaf pictured above not only looked delicious, it tasted fantastic with wonderful crust and crumb - it was 12 oz unbleached white flour and 6 oz reg whole wheat flour and I used ODouls non alc beer (that is what was in the frig). As you can see, great rise and oven spring. Am also a devotee of Artisan Bread in 5 min/day method and have been using various doughs from their book for over a month now with great success and ease of preparation - I highly recommend it and their helpful website and blog. Haven't bought bread in the store for over a month and don't plan to. I don't currently have a cloche and was wondering how some of your cloche recipes work if just baked on a stone without a cover. Not ready to invest in cloche just yet, but will be looking for terra cotta pot (lead free) to used with my baking stone. Love your site and have already sent in my order for the wisk and other items.

Gia · 11 months ago

I just did a ANK loaf with cinn and sugar. I used my starter though. But after the first rise I kneaded 10 times and then pushed it out. Brushed with egg water mix and then sprinkled a cinn , sugar, flour mix on it and then rolled it up and pinched ends in and then baked in loaf pan. Came out YUMMY! the egg mix helped keep it in place. Brush the egg mix though. First one I just dumped it on and it went everywhere googy mess but loaf still came out good, the cinn sugar was everywhere in the loaf instead a pretty swirl but it was still super yummy.

Gia · 11 months ago

Sorry I did use the ANK recipe but I used my starter instead of beer and vinegar. Have made a loaf with starter and beer and that came yummy too. Sweet Thick moist dense texture. It was good like a meal in itself!

Rich Witt · 11 months ago

Gia

You mentioned sprinkling flour along with the cinnamon & sugar on the egg wash. Why the flour? Also did you add raisins? I'd like to see a pic of your loaf if you have one you could send to Eric to post here.

What temp. did you bake your loaf at, and for how long?

I think if I can combine some of the ideas in several responses here, I can potentially achieve perfection [in reaching my goal].

I think I'm going to skip the beer & vinegar and try substituting apple cider for them, as Karil suggested.

Rich

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

New comment on "sour" sourdoughs:
A while back, I commentd:

"What’s the difference between using a liquid, poolish-style sourdough starter and a firm, Biga-style starter: depends on the book you’re reading. Dr. Wood says the result is pretty much the same; Peter Reinhart in _Crust and Crumb_ says liquid is more sour, while in _Bread Baker’s Apprentice_ says firm is more sour; Maggie Glezer says that firm starters activated and nurtured in cool temperatures are more sour, while warmer more liquid starters are less sour, and that retarding sourdoughs in the refrigerator increases sourness."

I just got a new book by Daniel Leader & Lauren Chattman entitled "Local Breads: Sourdough and Whole-Grain Recipes from Europe's Best Artisan Bakers", which is extremely well-written and which says that firmer starters are less sour, liquid are more sour. Sigh.

I wish I could say I'd experiment with it and come back with a more definitive answer, but if these experts who've been making sourdough for decades can't come to a similar conclusion, such a venture on my part seems rather pointless.

Anyway, I do think that the most pronounced sour taste actually comes from retarding shaped loaves in the refrigerator overnight - dough has risen, gets shaped, as per the recipe, but instead of letting it sit for 20-30 minutes, it gets covered & put in the refrigerator immediately, to be taken ought the next day for an hour or so of warm-up, then baking. Of THAT I am at least almost certain.

sandy · 11 months ago

Jeffrey....................thank you soooooooooo much for this statement. ........"Anyway, I do think that the most pronounced sour taste actually comes from retarding shaped loaves in the refrigerator overnight - dough has risen, gets shaped, as per the recipe, but instead of letting it sit for 20-30 minutes, it gets covered & put in the refrigerator immediately, to be taken ought the next day for an hour or so of warm-up, then baking. Of THAT I am at least almost certain."

Sandy

Gia · 11 months ago

The swirly one is gone but the other one is still around. I can take a pic of that one. As far as the flour, don't know I took it from another cinn bread recipe. It is a small amount of flour. I baked it with directions from the ANK loaf (sandwich bread) in a glass loaf pan.
1/4 cup sugar
1 1/2 tsp cinn
2 tsp flour
1 egg beaten w/ 1 tbl water

sandy · 11 months ago

Jeffrey. Would you email me please about your comments, thanks, sandy

sscasagrande@yahoo.com

Gia · 11 months ago

How do post a pic?

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

A few more thoughts about NK or ANK bread and retarding in the refrigerator:

1. Such retarding probably would help give more flavor to breads raised with commercial yeast, in addition to making sourdoughs more sour and complex in flavor.

2. Retardation broadens the window of baking opportunities - from what I've read, you can retard bread dough for as long as 12 hours, so if you run out of time or an emergency comes up, putting the loaves in the refrigerator can save the loaves from ruin.

3. The only issue that comes to my mind is the timing of it: retarded loaves rise more slowly, but they do continue to rise. To avoid over-proofing with the ANK or NK recipes, I'd be inclined to shape the loaves a little early (like at 16 or 17 hours instead of 18) if I intended to retard them in the refrigerator over-night or during the work-day.

Also, sourdoughs tend to rise less quickly than commercial yeast.

Rich Witt · 11 months ago

Gia

To post a pic, send an email to Eric [eric@breadtopia.com] and ask him to post it with your particular message [message sender, date, time]

Rich

Gia · 11 months ago

Thanks! Here is half eaten ANK cinn loaf (gooey one because i dumped the egg mixture instead of brushing so cinn went everywhere).
<img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/Gia.JPG" alt="Gia's Cinnamon" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="338">
</img><img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/Gia2.JPG" alt="Gia's Cinnamon" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="338">
</img>

Jacob V. · 11 months ago

Hello all,
I just wrote this as a email reply but I'm not sure if this works so here I am posting it on Eric site (Thanks Eric, great site!) so my apologies if you get it twice.
In my quest to wake up with the smell of freshly baked/baking bread I have found retarding the dough in the fridge very use full.
My obsession for waking up with that fresh bread smell stems from my college years back home in Holland when I lived above a bakery. Especially around Easter time and X-mass it was unbeatable, I would wake up to all sorts of delectable aromas and only had to walk down (put on some clothes first..) and get some bread. My favorite was always the mini stollen with the almond paste inside of it.....mmm, delicious!
Anyway, the closest I've gotten is a freshly baked bread 2 hours after getting out of bed by using my variation of the NK of AKN recipes (I'm using the yeast version at the moment because it is more predictable, for me at least...). I start in the morning mixing all the ingredients plus a tablespoon of honey (another fun ingredient, there are so many different honeys out there and there all delicious and each imparts its own flavor to your bread) letting it ferment till evening, punch it, shape it, put it in the proofing basket and then right into the fridge. The next morning I'll take it out and put it on top of the stove while I pre-heat the oven and cloche for 30mins, bake it 45 mins and rest it 45mins or 1hr if I can muster up the patience (not very often). E Presto! get out the butter and the home-made jam or cheese and it's hard to keep the grin off your face...
It is not quite waking up to the smell of bread but as close as I have been able to get and unless I can get my wife to get out bed 2 hours before me (don't bet on it!), this is what I'll be doing until my kids are old enough to bake it for me, LOL...

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

Hi, Jacob

Another note about the usefulness of refrigerating shaped loaves: its a lot easier to slash the loaves when they're cold. (Slashing can help with oven-spring and help prevent large pockets from forming under the crust. Done improperly, it can help deflate the loaf, though._

I've had great success using my Cloche in a pre-heated oven - but without pre-heating the Cloche itself. I put the shaped dough into the room-temperature cloche, or I have allowed the refrigerated Cloche to come to room temperature after a night in the refrigerator, then it into the hot oven. (That's actually what my Cloche instructions said to do.) More importantly, I have also had success putting the cold cloche directly out of the refrigerator into a cold oven, then just turning on the oven, and adding about 7-10 minutes to the cook time. And for really big loaves, I've used my Cloche upside-down, fitting the handled between the wires of the oven-rack.

Anyway, I think it would entirely feasible for you to put the refrigerated cloche into your oven before you go to bed, set the timer on the oven to come on about 1/2 hour before you usually arise, and, Voila!, you could have the smell of baking bread coming to wake you from your dreams. You might want to modify the rise time of the dough, shape the loaves a little early, to account for the 6-8 hours the dough spends waiting for hte oven to turn itself on.

BJ · 11 months ago

Wait, there's something I, a novice at no-knead bread, don't understand. Why does the sandwich loaf work? I thought that a requirement of this process was baking inside a covered vessel or "fake" oven? Or is that not truly necessary with these recipes??? I'm puzzled.

John Gordon · 11 months ago

The sandwich loaf works outside of a closed cast iron pot or cloche because you don't want a crunchy crust with your sandwich. An enclosed environment lets the steam escaping the wet dough become like a steam injected oven. The high moisture environment will help produce a good crust, but a hard crust isn't found in most sandwich bread. Baking outside of a pot or cloche lets the moisture evaporate, thus a softer crust.

Someone put it more eloquent or technically correct, please. I'm a neophyte.

Amy K · 11 months ago

FYI - My bread (CI ANK-see the picture above at 1-04-09) still made good toast a whole week later - was a little dry and crumbly for untoasted use, but really great toast. Had it stored at room temperature in tupperware type container. Excellent recipe. Thanks, AK

Ken Krawford · 11 months ago

I have been making ANK bread for almost 2 years in a round container. This Christmas I received an oblong La Cloche. The loaves turn out too small in diameter to use for sandwich bread. I tried increasing the standard ANK receipe by 50% but the loaves are still too small.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.

Breadtopia · 11 months ago

I usually use standard 9 x 5 loaf pans when I want sandwich bread. You don't get the same artisanal (thicker) crust as you typically get when baking with clay bake ware, but then you usually don't want a lighter crust on sandwich bread anyway.

Karil · 11 months ago

Hi Ken
I agree with Eric—sandwich bread is sandwich bread—it sports a more tender crust that makes biting off a piece easier and, therefore, also helps keep the insides from oozing out the other end of the sandwich. Also, the shape and size of the sandwich loaf is more or less standardized, as is the thickness of the slices. Indeed, some coldcuts and cheeses are even cut to fit such loaves. My suggestion is, if you like the crust and texture of the artisinal loaf for sandwiches (as I do), then enjoy two small sandwiches rather than one big one. I like cutting the sandwiches into two or three strips so that they are easier to eat (just a little bit less wide than my mouth). That way the contents don't ooze as much. Also, open-face sandwiches are great on the smaller slices cut from long artisinal loaves, though they can't be packed up into a lunch bags quite so neatly. Either way, enjoy your new Clôche and your loaves!

Karil

Rich Witt · 11 months ago

If you recall my post of Jan 4 regarding my attempt at cinnamon/raisin bread, it was my belief that while it wasn't too bad, there were some short-comings. Several of you had suggestions, and I incorporated them into my next attempt.

The next attempt took the form of Eric's ANK sandwich loaf. Instead of using the beer & vinegar though, I used 4oz. of apple cider along with 8oz. of water.
I also used 18oz. of KAF white bread flour, rather than adding any whole wheat, and omitted the 2TBS of sugar. Otherwise, it was the same amounts of ingredients as Eric's sandwich loaf.

After the 18 hour ferment, I put the dough out on my floured surface, and folded it over. When I did the last loaf, after the recommended 10 or so folds, the dough became too elastic to spread out to a flat semi rectangle, so this tiime, I only folded it over 3 times, and spread it out flat.

This time I coated the flat dough with an egg wash, allowed it to set for a minute or two, and sprinkled the dough with the cinnamon/sugar mix. I then rolled it up jelly-roll style, pinched the ends & seam together, and placed it seam side down in the glass bread pan to do it's second rise.

I had some distractions while making the bread, and about half-way through the 2nd rise, I noticed the 1/2 cup of raisins setting on the table. I had forgotten to put them in before rolling up the dough. #*@&*#@! Oh well, I figured I might as well let it go just as a cinnamon swirl loaf. I baked the loaf in accord with Eric's time and temp instructions. During the last 10 minutes of baking, I brushed some of the egg-wash on the top of the loaf, and sprinkled it with raw turbinado suger. That turned out to be a nice touch.

I was also doing a 2nd loaf of ANK rye bread. It was the same as Eric's ANK round whole wheat loaf, except that I substituted 5oz of Red Mill dark rye for the whole wheat flour, and added 1TBSP of carraway seeds

As soon as the cinnamon swirl came out of the oven, I put my baking vessel in the oven and set the temp to 500F for 30 min. After the pre-heat I put my rye loaf in the baking vessel and lowered the temp to 425F. After the 30 min bake time, I un-covered the baker and let it go for another 10 min. I then checked the internal temp of the bread and it was only at 195 F. I tented the loaf and let it bake for another 10 min, which did the job.

As soon as I took the rye out and racked it to cool, a friend of mine showed up to go out to lunch. When we returned, we had to check out the bread.

I cut both loaves in half and sent half of each home with my friend. Later, he emailed me that his girlfriend ate all but one slice of the cinnamon loaf, and only let him have one slice.

Anyway, as soon as I post this, I'll send Eric an email with some pictures of my effort.

Rich

<img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/RichardW.jpg" alt="Richard Witt ANK" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="253">
</img><img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/RichardW2.jpg" alt="Richard Witt ANK" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="253">
</img><img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/RichardW3.jpg" alt="Richard Witt ANK" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="450" height="253"></img>

Rich Witt · 11 months ago

Hi Eric and all

I want to make a 100% whole wheat ANK loaf based on the C. I. recipe, using KAF White Whole Wheat flour

I'm wondering what additives to use here. Someone suggested that I might want to add some vital wheat gluten flour to the mix. Also, would the amount of sugar need to be adjusted? How about the amount of liquid?

I picked up a bag of Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten flour, and on the back of the bag, it suggests 1 tbsp of the VGW flour per cup of flour used.

I saw some other posts on this site re 100% whole wheat bread, but didn't see anything about the VGW being added.

Any thoughts?

Rich

Karil · 11 months ago

Hi Rich

Whenever the dough gets a mind of its own, just let it rest a bit—ten minutes or so. It relaxes and permits you to tease it again—fold it, roll it, stretch it, whatever.

Karil

Barbara · 11 months ago

I just found this site and thanks for the help. I made ANK bread and found the inside very dense and too moist. Will try to increase moisture as the dough was the same as kneaded bread dough. I am using flour I brought back from Canada because of the higher gluten. The best bread in Canada is Winnipeg City Rye - no sugar, no fat and it has rye berries in it. Getting 8 loaves brought down this weekend. Could my dough be so dense because of this flour and will increasing the moisture help? I also like larger holes in my bread.

Richard Walker · 11 months ago

Moisture might help as might folding the dough (1/3 from top toward bottom, 1/3 from bottom toward top, 1/3 from left toward right, 1/3 from right toward left, flip, back in the rising pan, cover) instead of kneading between risings. Perhaps additional time on each rising to let the carbon dioxide get those holes going for you.

John Gordon · 11 months ago

For Barbara:
I had problems like this as wel starting outl. Here's a couple things to check:
1. If you're using tap water, make sure you are filtering it or you have a good filter on your system. Tap water has chlorine in it and chlorine kills yeast and your rise will suffer If you can't filter tap, use bottled water, it doesn't take much.

2. Weigh your flour and water with a digital scale. I found a nice scale that switches to grams or imperial. Polder KSC-310-28 Easy Read Digital Glass Top Scale, Silver is the one I use, or you can try one of the two he has on this website at http://www.breadtopia.com/store/kitchen-gadgets...

If your dough is too wet it will not rise properly. If your dough is too dry you get lumps of flour in it. As long as you follow the recipe proportions and weigh your ingredients, you should be fine. Best of luck!

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

Hi, Barbara

From reading your post, I'm not certain what kind of flour you used in your bread - you mention high gluten flour, but also talk about rye bread. Rye flour has almost zero/zed gluten in it, so if you used a lot of rye flour, there's not much likelihood you would get much rise.

Another possibility is that your yeast is dead or worn-out. You can proof yeast to make sure it's very active by putting a little bit in some lightly-sugared water, waiting 5-10 minutes and seeing it if produces a lot of bubbles. If it doesn't, you need new yeast.
(I can't recall the exact amounts of yeast, water and sugar to use for proofing, but I'm sure someone else here can provide the information.)

Margo1t · 11 months ago

I made my first loaf of almost no knead white bread (the 15 ounces of flour one) today. A couple of variations, I used 3 ounces of Semolina flour in the and the rest KA All Purpose. I used Hale's Ales Wee Heavy Winter Ale and FORGOT the sugar/honey part entirely. Used a slightly smaller pyrex loaf pan and it came out GREAT! even without the sweetner!

I have the larger recipe rising right now - used the same ale and 3 ounces of the Semolina again, but substitued Cider vinegar and used about a teaspoon of brown sugar and the rest of the measurement honey. Will let you know how that works.

Great recipe!

Kerry · 11 months ago

I made my first two loaves on Sunday. The first time I've ever made bread, and not only was it edible, it was really good! The crust was beautiful, the crumb perfect. I made one loaf of white and one of wheat, and we like both. I can't wait to try again with different types of beer.

For reference, I used fast-acting yeast because I couldn't find instant (I'll order some from Breadtopia soon) and the first rise was closer to 20 hours. I used Sam Adams Boston Lager and I used bread flour as my white flour, not all-purpose.

Thank you for this site! I never though I'd made bread from scratch, now I can't wait to do it again.

Jefrey · 11 months ago

Hi, Kerry

From what I've read, "Bread-Machine" yeast is the same thing as instant yeast. Comments anyone?

Still, I like the idea of using the stuff that says it's definitely instant yeast.

Another possible subject for comment: I know that supposedly all yeast is pretty much the same, and that the only difference is really one of age, but I really, really prefer SAF instant yeast over all the others.

And while we're on the topic of SAF, there's two kinds of SAF instant yeast: regular and Gold (which can be purchased at King Arthur). Gold is a specialized instant yeast which is designed to function better in sweeter or more acidic breads - i.e., better for sweet rolls, and a good way of boosting sourdoughs. I have some, but not enough experience with it to comment.

harvey · 11 months ago

Jefrey, and anyone else,,

Yeast is not all the same, but they are all similar. Check out this web site:

http://breaddaily.tripod.com/yeast.htm

If you have ever had questions about what kind of yeast you can substitute when you run out or how to store unused yeast, then look no further than the chart on the site!

A word about natural yeast and starters. There is yeast in the air almost everywhere. It is carried with the wind and is part of the environment. If you have a starter, it will eventually take on the characteristics of the 'wild yeast' where you live. While I started with a 'San Francisco' sourdough starter, I am sure that at this point I have a 'South Florida' sourdough starter. Especially since Florida is a state where grapes are grown commercially. ( that makes for lots of yeast in the air to be transported by the wind ) Not that this is a bad thing. My starter makes great sourdough bread.

Happy Baking.

Harvey
"Man does not live by bread alone, sometimes he needs a little butter too."

Kerry · 11 months ago

I've got another question. I watch my sodium levels, and was wondering if anyone had tried these recepies using less than 1.5 tsps of salt. I know salt is needed for the chemistry to work, I just wasn't sure how much was needed.

Thanks for all the help!

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

Hi, Harvey

Helpful link - thanks.

I just read "Local Breads", a new book by Daniel Leader, who also wrote "Bread Alone" (and who owns/runs a bakery by that name in New York State), and he actually had samples of sourdough starter tested in a lab, and the results completely validate the notion that sourdough starters become "localized" over time. (Incidentally, "Local Breads" is quite well written, and has some interesting and entertaining stories about Mr. Leader's search for recipes in various parts of Europe.)

At the same time, I have starters from three different sources (France, Alaska, & San Francisco). When I refresh them, I swear that I can smell a big difference between the cultures - and that may have more to do with the kind of bacteria in the culture, rather than the yeast. The Alaska culture also seems a lot "faster" - much quicker rise, although at the end of 8 hours the amount of rise is the same as the other 2. Also, I threw out a Russian-source culture I had, because I just didn't like the flavor of the bread.

I think I'll write to Mr. Leader, if I can find an email address and ask him what he thinks about the idea that, while yeast may become localized, bacteria might not.

Bob Packer · 11 months ago

Kerry,

I googled your question and this site might help:

http://www.recipesecrets.net/forums/general-cha...

Bob

Dave the Novice · 11 months ago

Jeffrey,

I hope you get a response from Mr. Leader, and post it here. Everything authoritative I have been able to find suggests that yeasts, wherever they may come from, have nothing to do with the taste of bread. It may not matter much whether the yeasts are displaced, if the bacteria are not.

Kerry,

I usually use less salt than these recipes call for, simply as a matter of taste. I find that sourdough, or any other acid component, reduces the amount of salt I prefer in the bread.

On the matter of yeast, this is the best posting I have seen:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10455/fleischm...

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

Hi, Kerry

I always put in less salt than bread recipes call for. Most of the time, if I put in the full amount, the bread tastes, well, not salty like pretzels, but "brackish". I try to use salt so that it brings out the flavor of foods, without flavoring them with a salt taste. If a recipe calls for 1 1/2 tsp., I put in 1 tsp, or maybe even 3/4 tsp. and still get good results. I also use sea salt (Haines coommerical sea salt, usually), which provides more flavor with less salt.

I"ve read that salt strengthens gluten to add structural integrity to bread. Seems to me less salt and higher gluten content would do the same thing, either by adding Vital Wheat Gluten, or using a higher-gluten flour.

Bob Packer · 11 months ago

Salt also appears to somewhat control the fermentation. So less salt and a longer fermentation SHOULD get about the same result. Be worth trying, anyway.

I also use less salt in most of my recipes and just watch the rise on the doughs.

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

Hi, Bob

"Salt also appears to somewhat control the fermentation. So less salt and a longer fermentation SHOULD get about the same result."

From what I read, salt slows fermentation, so less salt means faster ferment. To get the longer ferment (for much better flavor), if you put in less salt, you probably should also either put in less yeast or refrigerate the dough for much of the rise time, so the dough doesn't ferment too quickly. How much less yeast, I don't know. If I were experimenting, if I reduced the salt by half, I'd probably reduce the yeast by half, too. I'd be more inclined to refrigerate.

Bob Packer · 11 months ago

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - I made the fatal mistake of assumption.

I was assuming that everyone refrigerated their doughs.

I control my rise by the length of time I keep the dough in the fridge.

If you check out the Artisan Bread in 5 minutes, you will see that the dough is kept out for 2 hours, then refrigerated for up to two weeks. But even in this recipe, I halved the salt.

Bob

harvey · 11 months ago

Hello All,
The Great Debate continues. I don't want to corrupt the purpose of this great site so I'll add my thoughts and hope they help. Assume that yeast is yeast and the actual fermentation is controlled by the 'local' bacteria. That could be why you have different rise times, flavors and textures to a variety of items and they all seem to have different flavors depending on their origin. This may very well explain why 'San Francisco' sourdough is so unique, even among its many imitators around the country. I have a neighbor that brought back an 'Amish' starter from PA. I tried the bread and it is definitely a different taste than a traditional 'S.F. Sourdough'. Draw your own conclusions. Local yeast or local bacteria? Whichever or whatever the reason, love your bread making. It's the least expensive 'therapy' you can get.

Happy Baking
Harvey
“Man does not live by bread alone, sometimes he needs a little butter too.”

Tony S. · 11 months ago

Hi, Eric,
I'm awaiting the second rising (sounds religious, doesn't it?) of my first ANK loaf, and started wondering if anyone had tried to make a ANK or NKB with a Pyrex or metal baking
pan under a La Cloche dome. Am considering buying the loaf type La Cloche unless this variation works.
Several friends and I are still baking the NKB on an almost daily basis, with some variations...guess we're never satisfied. Latest is using Kalamata olives - sliced and rinsed - added during the dry ingredients mixing. Turned out delicious. Then noticed that I recently saw it on your site.
Thanks for your continuing efforts, Eric!
Tony

Bob Packer · 11 months ago

Tony,

Now try cutting some Pepper Jack cheese into 3/4 inch squares and put in with the Kalamat olives. Good stuff.
Bob

Tony S. · 11 months ago

Thanks for the tip, Bob.
Will give it a shot.
Tony

Breadtopia · 10 months ago

I received this email today. Thought I'd take the liberty to post it here. Thanks Marianne.

I'm not new to bread baking, but I am somewhat of a rookie in the no-knead method. I've been having fun baking some of the breads from your website. Today I baked the Cooks Illustrated almost no-knead bread. Since I don't have a La Cloche or a dutch oven, I baked it on my pizza stone and covered it with an unglazed terracotta flowerpot. I plugged the pot's drain hold with some aluminum foil. The bread turned out just great! Thanks again for the recipes and the videos!

I've attached a photo of the almost no-knead bread.

Take care!

Marianne
British Columbia, Canada

Eva · 10 months ago

Hi Marianne,
Could you please let me know at what Temperature you pre-heated the oven along with the pizzastone, I suppose.
Also, how long did you bake your bread covered and uncovered?
Since my rye bread always turns out rather moist inside I want to try to bake it on a pizzastone.
A baker told me, that rye bread baked in the dutch oven will always come out moist since the moisture in the dough does not have a way to escape.
My bread tastes super good; I would just like to have it dry inside.
Thanks,
Eva

Eva · 10 months ago

Marianne, another question: Do you soak the flowerpot in water before baking and do you pre-heat it also?
Thanks, Eva

Marianne · 10 months ago

Hi Eva,

About half an hour before I wanted to bake the bread, I put the pizza stone and the flower pot into the cold oven. I then turned the oven on to 500F and let both the stone and the pot preheat for about half an hour. I didn't soak the pot.

I pretty much followed the directions in the recipe as written for the time and temperatures. I removed the flower pot for the last 15 minutes of baking time.

I've only done this a few times so I can't say if or when the flower pot might develop a crack.

Hope that helps. :) Marianne

marc lowen · 10 months ago

Last night I made my first No knead in a 3quart corning ware covered pot. Previously I used a cast iron Dutch oven. Same recipe however the cook times were much longer to get internal temp to 200 …Why??

Jeffrey · 10 months ago

"Last night I made my first No knead in a 3quart corning ware covered pot. Previously I used a cast iron Dutch oven. Same recipe however the cook times were much longer to get internal temp to 200 …Why??"

All other things being the same, I'd say that the only apparent answer is: heat transmission of the cookware material. As the dough absorbs heat from the cookware, it takes time for the heat from the oven to be transmitted through the cookware material. It would seem that cast iron is a faster conductor of heat energy than Corning Ware.

My favorite loaf-pans are Pyrex. I never have problems with the crust burning next to the glass.

Mary Ann · 10 months ago

I've tried the basic cooks illustrated recipe with a little beer in it and we like it a lot. My question, and it may be in here somewhere but too many comments to sift through, is if it is OK if the beer is stale. Hate to just throw out almost a whole can, but we just don't drink the stuff. I put my leftover beer in a jar with a lid and it is just sitting in the frig waiting for it's destiny.

Marianne · 10 months ago

I also put the left-over beer into the fridge and used it again about a week later. The bread seemed to turn out just fine.

Breadtopia · 10 months ago

Same here.

Rich Witt · 10 months ago

Hello

The last time I posted, I was planning to bake a 100% white whole wheat flour ANK loaf.

The date of that post was January 13, 2009, which turned out to be a rather fateful day for me. That evening, I burned down my kitchen, and ended up in the hospital emergency room with nasty 2nd degree burns on my left hand.

This weekend, now that everything is restored, with a new stove and all in the kitchen [ except for a new range hood and counter top, which is expected to be installed next week some time], I decided to proceed with the bread making.

The 100% [except for 3 tbsp of vital wheat gluten] white whole wheat flour loaf was baked using the following recipe:

15 oz of KAF white whole wheat flour [including the 3 tbsp of gluten]
2 tbsp raw sugar
1.5 tsp of kosher salt
0.25 tsp of SAF instant yeast
3 oz organic apple cider
7 oz + 2 tbsp of spring water.

All was mixed , formed into dough and left to ferment for 18 hours. The expansion of the dough was less than I had anticipated [perhaps because the dough was in the coolest corner of the kitchen - maybe 68 F.

This morning, I formed the dough into the typical ball and placed it on parchment paper in a frying pan, for the 2nd rise for 2 hours.

I placed my clay baking vessel in the oven and pre-heated it to 500 deg.
then reduced the oven temp to 420 F. and baked the loaf for 30 min. When I checked the loaf temp after 30 min, the inst. read thermometer only read 160 F. To make a long story short, I continued baking until I got a bread temp of 205 F. This took 1 hour of total bake time.

I'm wondering if the new stove is displaying the proper temp setting. I have to go out and get an oven thermometer to check it.

The bread cooled, and I cut a couple of slices. It all looked nice, but the bread had very tight crumb. [I'm going to forward Eric a couple of pics to post here].

Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions? Add more vital wheat gluten? More hydration? Oven not hot enough?

Well, the proof of the experiment is in the eating: The crust has a nice crunch to it and the inside is somewhat chewy, which is what I was trying to achieve. However, I think the loaf is too dense.

Also, I'm not crazy about the taste. It might have tasted better if the loaf was less dense. I think the loaf with 2 cups of KAF white bread flour and 1 cup of whole wheat tasted much better. I'm not sure I'll try this recipe again.

Rich

<img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/RichANK.jpg" alt="Rich's ANK Whole Wheat" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="500" height="281">
</img><img src="http://www.breadtopia.com/uploads/Image/Rich2ANK.jpg" alt="Rich's ANK Whole Wheat" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="500" height="281">
</img>

Breadtopia · 10 months ago

Looks good to me, Rich. A tight crumb is common with 100 whole grain bread. Peter Reinhart really ramps up the instant yeast in his whole wheat recipes (2 1/2 tsps). A mere 10x the no knead amounts. It's a different recipe and all, but I wonder if you'd get a more open crumb with, say, 1/2 - 1 tsp. yeast. Just a thought. I have no idea without trying.

Wow, what a harrowing experience with the kitchen fire. Thank goodness it wasn't worse.

Gabe · 10 months ago

love watching these vids but the first one made me cringe......I know youre not using it for aerospace precision but working on top of your scale is a no no.

Still, keep up the great work, this place has given me some big dreams

Rich Witt · 10 months ago

Eric

Increasing the inst. yeast is an idea that would be worth trying, but since I really didn't like the intense whole-wheat flavor of the bread, I don't think I'll try a 100% whole wheat loaf again.

I wanted to try the 100% whole wheat for the increased fiber and get away from the white bread problem as respects digestive physiology. But if it doesn't taste good to me, there is little point.

I think I will try your variant again with 2:1 white flour to whole wheat ratio, but try to add something to increase the fiber level of the loaf. Perhaps the addition of wheat berries and edible bran.

I saw a recipe somewhere that used an ingredient that was specifically for raising the fiber content. I'm going to try to find that again on the web.

Unfortunately, determining the fiber level/serving is beyond my abilities.

After all, my initial intent in all of this was to have a hobby activity to carry me through winter, with the added benefit of having some good bread to eat!

Rich

Marianne · 10 months ago

Here in Canada, Robin Hood Flour has a new product. Robin Hood Nutri Flour Blend is a blend of unbleached white flour and ground wheat bran. It tastes like white flour, but has the same amount of bran as whole wheat flour. Apparently it can be substituted for white flour in any of your recipes. I haven't tried it in a no-knead recipe yet, but if I do, I'll let you know how it goes.

Here's the link to the website:
http://www.robinhood.ca/product.details.asp?pid...

Marianne

Breadtopia · 10 months ago

I've been working (playing) on a 100% spelt bread that I love the taste of. Not bitter at all. Spelt is wheat but unique in some significant ways. You could try that.

Marianne · 10 months ago

Rich,

If you're interested in knowing the nutritional composition of your recipes, check out Nutritiondata.com.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/

Just input all of the ingredients in your recipe, and the program does all of the work and does a complete nutritional analysis. It will calculate the amount of fiber in the recipe as well.

Marianne

Karil · 10 months ago

Hi Eric
If you like spelt, you will love kamut, which is supposedly an ancient wheat precursor from Egypt. It is sweet and nutty and also has absolutely no bitterness. The color is a beautiful golden hue. The gluten is supposed to be more digestible than wheat, however, from what I have read, it is best not to add extras to the dough, such as bran or nuts or wheat berries because these elements might cause the gluten strands to break. It makes wonderful loaves!
Greetings,
Karil

Breadtopia · 10 months ago

I really like Kamut too. And I love using these ancient grains. I'm growing some rare heirloom wheats now. I planted last Sept and hoping they come up this Spring. I'll be putting up a page on growing wheat and posting progress of the project. It'll take years to build a good seed supply but what fun working on it.

Rich Witt · 10 months ago

Marianne

Thanks for the link. When I get a little more time, I'll utilize the nutritional formula.

Rich

Stephanie J · 10 months ago

Your lovely sandwich loaf slipped out ever-so-easily from that glass Pyrex. I have NEVER had luck with glass. My bread ALWAYS sticks! What am I doing wrong? I've tried Pam-type sprays, straight olive oil (heavy or sprayed-on with a Misto), straight canola oil (heavy or sprayed-on with a Misto), and butter. I loved the crust in that glass. Any suggestions?

Secondly, I've seen it asked before, but I couldn't find an answer. I've been doing the CI Almost NK since it was published regularly, but I have never used instant yeast, always standard. I don't soften it prior in a bit of water, just throw it in the dry ingredients. I've never had a problem with performance. However, has anyone used both methods? Did instant actually result in a significant difference?

Thanks!

Stephanie J · 10 months ago

Clarification to above question...hey, it's almost 11:30 pm and I should be sleeping :(

When I say I use "standard" yeast, I mean Red Star active dry as opposed to instant or bread machine style.

Breadtopia · 10 months ago

Hi Stephanie,

I don't know why you'd have such problems with sticking. I've only used butter because it's always worked fine for me. I don't even use very much. Hopefully someone else can help with this and your yeast question.

Jeffrey · 10 months ago

Hi Stephanie

Glass has texture, although you can't really see or even feel it, and I think it makes a difference how oil or shortening is applied to the surface. My recollection (it's been a while since I used my Pyrex loaf-pans for bread) is that problems with sticking for standard bread recipes came when I didn't rub the oil (or shortening - I used Crisco) into the surface of the pan. The solution I arrived at was to put a slightly excess amount of oil into the pans, then really rub it into the surface with a paper towel, which also acted to absorb excess oil. When I used shortening, I loaded up the paper towel with shortening, then rub it in, paying particular attention to the corners of the pan, where I most often encountered problems.

I could also be that your glassware has slight manufacturing defects, making the surface just a little bit more textured than most, which would add to sticking.

Carol · 9 months ago

I don't see anywhere in the recipe where it says how long the rises. Only the video mentions a 2 hour rise. Is the 2 hour rise the only rise?

Breadtopia · 9 months ago

Hi Carol,

There's a long rise too. It's pretty much like the regular no knead recipe in that respect. I can't remember if it's in part I or II of the the two videos, but I'm pretty sure it's in there.

Carol · 9 months ago

You don't give any rising times for either the breads on this page for for the banana bread, or the no knead loaf bread, or I just don't seem them. Any help is greatly appreciated. I know the original no knead has an 18 hour and a 2 hour rise time. Thanks.

Breadtopia · 9 months ago

All the information is in the videos. I gather you are unable to view the videos on your computer so here you go... 8 to 18 hours on the first rise and 2 hours on the second.

BJ · 9 months ago

I want to use my starter to make the sandwich loaf. Do I just do as this site says and sub the starter for the yeast? Can I leave out the beer and go with all water? What I really want is just a whole-wheat sourdough sandwich loaf. Any suggestions? I have made the sandwich loaf the way the video shows and it was very good, but I have this great starter and don't want to use yeast.

Marianne · 9 months ago

BJ, I would imagine that you can substitute the starter for the yeast. I'm guessing that 3/8 cup of starter could be substituted for the 3/8 tsp. of instant yeast.

As for the beer, the beer adds liquid as well as flavor, so substituting water for the beer should work, but the flavor would be different.

Using all whole wheat flour may result in a loaf which doesn't rise as well because there's less gluten in the whole wheat flour than in white flour. If you can find whole wheat bread flour, that might help. Or, you can add some vital wheat gluten to increase the gluten content of the whole wheat flour.

Give it a try and see how it goes.

Rich. Witt · 9 months ago

BJ
Go to Eric's & my comments & photos here starting 02-28-09, re 100% whole wheat.

I, of course did not use sourdough starter. However, I did use 1 TBSP of vital wheat gluten per cup of flour. I still did not get a great rise. Eric suggested using a lot more instant yeast, like maybe a TSP. Maybe you want to increase the amount of starter. If cups of starter are equivalent to TSPs of instant yeast, you may want to try a full cup of starter - or work your way up. Start with a half-cup of starter.

I did not try increasing the yeast because I simply did not like the taste of the 100% whole wheat loaf, and will not bake it again.

Of course, maybe you like that flavor.

Rich

I have not tried increasing the yeast

Jeffrey · 9 months ago

BJ

Sourdough starters must be fully "activated" before using them in any recipe. If the culture has been sitting idle, it should be fed with flour and water, and allowed to ferment a good 8 - 12 hours before actually using it to make bread. Most recipes I've read say that an activated culture stored in the refrigerator can be used for up to 3 days, after which it should be reactivated. Most bakeries feed their SD cultures at least once a day, often more.

1/4 cup of a starter that's been sitting in your refrigerator for a week isn't going to do a very good job of raising your dough.

BJ · 9 months ago

Well, I made the recipe just as Eric said to with the exception of using yeast, I used my very active and healthy starter and used half the amount of vinegar. I got a great looking loaf. Rose up quite a bit more than I expected while in the oven. It is still cooling so have not tried it for flavor. I also have put together another loaf, as an experiment, omitting the beer altogether. Want to compare. Thanks for the advice from all. Starting to realize that it is all an experiment and even the mistakes are edible!

James · 8 months ago

Just curious what that thing is that you are using to stir in the Almost No Knead Sandwich Loaf Recipe video. Your answer would be much appreciated, thanks in advance.

Breadtopia · 8 months ago

Hi James. That's a Danish dough whisk.

Charles · 8 months ago

Eric, yesterday I started the whole wheat version of the “Almost No Knead” bread, and it has been rising for about 12 hours. However, last night I forgot to put the 2 Tbs of honey/sugar in the dough. Since it has been rising for 12 + hours, is it too late to add the sugar? Isn't the sugar just food for the yeast, if not, what does the sugar add?

Breadtopia · 8 months ago

Skip the sugar this time. You don't need it.

It is food for the yeast but also just flavor and covers the bitterness in the whole wheat but the bread will probably be fine without it.

Jeffrey · 8 months ago

Two ways of lessening or avoiding the bitterness of whole wheat:
1. Use white whole wheat, which is milled from a different kind of wheat grain, and has a less bitter taste.
2. According to what I read in "Local Breads" by Daniel Leader, buy unmilled wheat berries and then grind your own flour (using a mill) as you need it.

Charles · 8 months ago

Eric, here are pictures of my latest bread making efforts. JPG 1194 is 50/50 white whole wheat and all purpose flour. 1195 is all purpose flour. 1199 is the crumb of the APF and 1204 shows the crumb of the white whole wheat. Even though I forgot the 2 Tbs of sugar in the WWWF it turned out great. Thanks

[img]DSCN1194.JPG[/img][img]DSCN1204.JPG[/img][img]DSCN1195.JPG[/img][img]DSCN1199.JPG[/img]

Rich. Witt · 8 months ago

Hello

Another experiment in bread making:

My sis-in-law asked me if I ever used "potato water" in making bread. I had not, and decided to try it. I made 2 loaves. One was the ANK 1/3 whole wheat loaf, where I substituted 7 oz of the potato water for the spring water for the round loaf for my personal consumption.

The other ANK loaf was an all KAF white bread flour, using 4 oz of the potato water in the 10 oz of liquid. I brought the all-white loaf to my son's place for the Easter holiday, for an appetizer with brie & gorgonzola cheeses. Everyone devoured the entire loaf and proclaimed it the best they can remember ever eating.

My brother is a trained amateur chef, and wants me to teach him how to make it.

I'm just about to boil up some potatoes for the potato water, but I wonder, does anyone know if I could achieve the same result [chemically] using some potato flour rather than using potato water?

Rich

[img]SDC10506.JPG[/img]

Carol · 8 months ago

I'm not a beer drinker. Can you please tell me what kinds of beer to use in the bread? Thanks.

Breadtopia · 8 months ago

Hi Carol,

People use all kinds of different beers. I personally don't think it matters much. You could even use the non-alcoholic beers if you want.

Harvey · 8 months ago

I have made this bread with a number of different beers. I have used stout beer, pilsners, lagers and ales. My favorite was using a 'wheat' beer like Blue Moon. I just used the Budweiser American Ale and the bread was terrific, but I still like the wheat beer the best. The actual flavor differences are minimal to most people. Most of the time my family usually didn't taste any differences. So go with it and try a simple, readily available beer like Bud. If you are not a beer drinker get a beer from a neighbor that drinks beer. Then give them some of the bread.

Harvey
"Man does not live by bread alone. Sometimes he needs some Butter as well"

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